Pickup for a 12 String Acoustic

richardp69

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o.k., so most of you know have come to realize that I am truly ignorant and my knowledge base is small.

That being said, do you need a special pickup for a 12 string or not???? Also, do any of you have a recommendation for such pickup. I'm thinking for my D 40-12 and possibly for my F 312 if it turns out really good after the repair/restoration. (which I suspect it will)
 

Cougar

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o.k., so most of you know have come to realize that I am truly ignorant and my knowledge base is small.

I'd say I'm in that same boat as you, but I've heard nothing but good things about the K&K pure mini. I'd be surprised if it wouldn't work fine on a 12-string.

K_Kpuremini3_1024x1024.png


This place says "Pickups for 12-string guitars... can use many of the pickups used for standard 6-string guitars." And then they show you five pages of the following types:

  • Undersaddle pickups - Typically using a longer string spacing and wider saddle width than a 6-string guitar
  • Contact sensors - Mounted to the soundboard, bridge or bridge plate
  • Soundhole pickups - Magnetic pickups inserted into the soundhole
  • Microphones - Condensor mics attached inside or outside the guitar
 

crank

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On the recommendation of my luthier, who put a K&K Pure mini in my G37, I went with a K&K Pure Mini for my 412. Not the 12-string version , the regular one. I am less than happy with it. It does not pick up the high e strings as well as it should and that could just be a positioning problem. However, while my pure mini equipped G37 dreadnaught sounds fantastic plugged into a good PA, the 412 sounds just OK. Now the 412 sounds fantastic unplugged so I am thinking of changing the pick up to try and get more of the fantastic out of the 12-string when it is amplified.
 
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dbirchett

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I am very pleased with the K&K mini in my Larrivee 12. It works well straight into the amp but really shines with a separate preamp.
 

gibsonjunkie

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o.k., so most of you know have come to realize that I am truly ignorant and my knowledge base is small.

That being said, do you need a special pickup for a 12 string or not???? Also, do any of you have a recommendation for such pickup. I'm thinking for my D 40-12 and possibly for my F 312 if it turns out really good after the repair/restoration. (which I suspect it will)

I have the DTAR - multi-source, just like the ones that came in all my other Guilds. Love it!
 

chazmo

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Kk sounds do offer a pure western pickup for 12 strings too … https://kksound.com/products/purepickup.php

Markus :smile:

Markus, good call. I think that might be a "newer" product from K&K, as in something introduced in the past 10 years or so. The description sounds like it might address some of the "fullness" of the sound that you'd want with a 12er.

I like the PW mini on my F-512. Don't love it. Tremendous value, but my two observations about using it on stage are that it sounds a little bit quacky and feedback is an issue (probably the nature of the F-512 beast anyway). I'm a novice performer and really not sure what to expect re: feedback with an F-512.

I actually have the K&K preamp box, but I've never used it. Maybe I should.

Crank's observations about the K&K are very interesting, I will say that a multi-source system like the DTAR (now Seymour-Duncan) really caught my ear a few years ago in New Hartford. I don't know how it sounds on a 12-string (nobody had one), but it was heaven on the 6. I suspect a microphonic source would really help with quack and fullness on a 12-string too, but can't speak first-hand.
 
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SFIV1967

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Kk sounds do offer a pure western pickup for 12 strings too … https://kksound.com/products/purepickup.php
Interesting! Didn't know that.

"Pure 12-String: 3-head transducer for 12-string acoustic guitar. The larger pickup heads produce an extra strong bass response and pronounced midrange that sounds great in 12-string guitars and is a good alternative for guitars with heavy spruce tops and maple bridge plates."

Ralf
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Markus, good call. I think that might be a "newer" product from K&K, as in something introduced in the past 10 years or so. The description sounds like it might address some of the "fullness" of the sound that you'd want with a 12er.

I like the PW mini on my F-512. Don't love it. Tremendous value, but my two observations about using it on stage are that it sounds a little bit quacky and feedback is an issue (probably the nature of the F-512 beast anyway). I'm a novice performer and really not sure what to expect re: feedback with an F-512.

I actually have the K&K preamp box, but I've never used it. Maybe I should.

Crank's observations about the K&K are very interesting, I will say that a multi-source system like the DTAR (now Seymour-Duncan) really caught my ear a few years ago in New Hartford. I don't know how it sounds on a 12-string (nobody had one), but it was heaven on the 6. I suspect a microphonic source would really help with quack and fullness on a 12-string too, but can't speak first-hand.

Yes you should use the preamp...you'll boost the signal and won't have to turn everything else up so high it starts breaking up.

Quack doesn't have anything to do with using a microphone or not.

Nuuska can probably explain the issue much better than I.
 
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GuildFS4612CE

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My DDS-12 (and DDS-6) came with a Barbera Saddle pickup. A little pricy ($300) but they sound great. They were good enough for the Guild factory to use. http://barberatransducers.com/

Did your DD's come with the Baggs on board preamp that Doyle had Lloyd design in his prototypes? That's different from the Barbera passive PUPS...they are great in any case...just you'll need an offboard preamp if you install the Barbera passives.
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Richard...first you need to decide how and where you will be playing your 12 strings amplified...alone in your house...by yourself to accompany singing in public...in church in a group...with a band in a coffee shop?

Different systems do different things...you might also ask your luthier for an opinion.
 

adorshki

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Didn't the DTAR come with higher headroom to deal with the quack?
Yes the later one, I think the dual source like Chaz mentioned.
It used higher voltage allowing more headroom as Nuuska explained in this post about the op amp in his '70's F212:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?199274-1974-F212-Pick-Up-Question:
" The National Semiconductors OP AMP LM4250 is powered with +/- 1,5V using two AA-batteries.
According to datasheet it could be run with +/- 9V or even +/- 18V - leading to over 20dB more gain or headroom."

Not saying the DTAR'S the same chip, I don't know, but the principle still applies.
"IIRC" TXBumper was/is also a big fan of that system for that same reason.
But I think even he rated the Barbera as superior if one could afford the coin.
 
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gibsonjunkie

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Yes the later one, I think the dual source like Chaz mentioned.
It used higher voltage allowing more headroom as Nuuska explained in this post about the op amp in his '70's F212:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?199274-1974-F212-Pick-Up-Question:
" The National Semiconductors OP AMP LM4250 is powered with +/- 1,5V using two AA-batteries.
According to datasheet it could be run with +/- 9V or even +/- 18V - leading to over 20dB more gain or headroom."

Not saying the DTAR'S the same chip, I don't know, but the principle still applies.
"IIRC" TXBumper was/is also a big fan of that system for that same reason.
But I think even he rated the Barbera as superior if one could afford the coin.

The DTAR is advertised as being 18v. I don't know a lot of technical details, but it sounds great!
 

Br1ck

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Time for the impedance matching lecture for newbies. I'll try not to get too technical. It is the nature of piezo pickups that they need the input impedance of the next device in the signal chain to have a 1 Meg ohm input impedance. All soundboard transducers like the K&K mini and all undersaddle pickups use piezo crystals to turn vibration into and electrical signal. Run into a typical mixing board of around 800 ohms, the signal is bright and harsh. It is how piezo pickups react with the next device that determines the frequency response. With acoustic instruments, the first devise could be a pre, a DI box, a mixing board or an amplifier. You need something to match the impedance so you sound good. Virtually all acoustic pres and acoustic amps have the correct value input impedance. Some DIs do, some don't. Some mixing boards have a switch (labeled hi Z). If your guitar has a battery, it has an onboard pre amp so you are good to go. Regular electric guitar effects boxes and amplifiers usually don't match.

Some well known quality devices are the RedEye, the Baggs PARA DI, numerous Fishman products, K&K, etc.Usually money buys mo bedder. I am fortunate to live by Teddy Randazzo, maker of Dazzo pickups. I have them in six guitars. I have six and twelve string Pono parlor guitars. They are identical in every way but the number of strings, but they have different pickup sets tailored to each guitar. The K&K is designed to sound good in the most variety of guitars. It is this compromise that necessitates a lot of EQ. With Dazzos I use little to no EQ. K&K is the one size fits all solution, and maybe the way to go if you are not a sound geek.

Sometimes I think those that sell and install pickups don't want to lose a sale by pointing out the need to buy more gear. I can attest to the lack of this basic knowledge because I co host an open mike. 95% of K&K owners think they can just plug in, and they can if they want a harsh tone. It got so bad I had SunnAudio, another fine local company, build me a DI box we plug everyone into. Now those $4000 K&K equipped guitars sound good.
 
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