Why is a 12 string hard to tune and keep in tune?

[chazzan]

as compared to a 6 string that is.

Like to hear all your thoughts, tips, and ideas- I know there are some 12 string fans here!

To give some background: I have a 74 f-112 I use John Pierce 10-47 12 string strings and keep the guitar tuned to e flat. a 1/2 step down.
I also put chapstick in the nut to help the strings lubrication better. I get the same tuning results regardless of the strings I use.

The guitar does tune well and holds it's tune (least as good as I hold mine but still is a pain getting it into tune, and having it stay there for a set w/o constant retuning. I like the guitar a lot and feel it tunes as good as any other 12 string and better than some I have played- i like the sound and would play it more, but the tuning is a pain!!

My ideas why the 12 string is harder to tune and stay in tune than a 6 string ........

1) lighter strings at a lower tension tend to go out of tune more than heavier strings at the same tension 2) each string that is tuned effects the other strings because the tension on the neck changes (this is very pronounced when tuning a banjo) 3) it's harder to get the strings in tune with each other because there are more of them!

Thoughts.......................

 

[gilded]

My thoughts:

1) You aren't drinking enough.

2) Which tuners? Maybe they are worn out?

3) You really, really aren't drinking enough.

4) Use graphite on your nut. Chapstick ain't even good for lips!!

5) Please give further consideration to answers 1 and 3.

 

[john_kidder]

I've been tuning 12s for years and years - they were a colossal pain in the ass before electronic tuners (just one little A440 fork and a half day could get it right sometimes). But I've not had much of an issue since the early 80s and the Boss TU-12, and now the many clip-on variations. I keep one clipped to the peghead now when I'm playing, just a quick check every few tunes seems to keep things under control.

Could it be the tuning gears themselves on that old guitar? Tighten them up, lube a bit and try again? Are you playing in venues where the temperature's not reliable? If so, then the mix of small-diameter and larger strings can cause some grief.

?Or, per our helpful friend Gilded, have another drink, perhaps it will sound better?

 

[wileypickett]

You know the old joke -- 12 string players spend half their time tuning their guitars and the other half playing out-of-tune guitars.

As others have noted, there are more tuners to tune, yes; there's more pull on the neck, certainly; not enough booze, OK -- all contribute to the difficulty.

But I think another big part of it is that 12-strings, with all those octaves and unisons, are VERY unforgiving if they're even a little out-of-tune -- it's simply easier to hear when a 12-string is off, versus a six-string -- at least in my experience.

I play only in open tunings, which I alter throughout a set. I use D'Addario Medium / Heavy (EJ37) strings, tuned way down to B-flat. I also use partial capos that I make myself. (Capos can pull strings sharp, and they often pull the heavier gauge strings sharper than the lighter gauge.)

At this point I can tune pretty quickly by ear, and for playing at home, that's what I do. (I also like to flatter myself that I'm not completely reliant on a tuner to get my guitar in tune!) In a live setting, however, I use a tuner. I tune once before I go on stage, and again sometime during the set. (I play strictly acoustically, no pick ups, and I use a clip-on tuner that attaches to the headstock, like John, above.)

I also like to play with modest lighting -- if the lights are too hot, that'll affect your guitar and require more fiddling with tuners.

Some solutions:

--If your guitar didn't come with decent quality tuners, replace 'em! Grover 14:1s are great, and 18:1s are even better --finer gear ratio permits for finer tuning.

--As "littlesongs" sez, change your strings fairly often -- depending on how much you play. I change mine at least every three weeks, more often if I'm touring and playing every night. Even though old strings may be in tune played open, without fretting them, they'll begin to sound out-of-tune when you play chords. Why? Because the longer you play one set of strings, the more those strings become "dented" by the frets, which will throw the pitch off. Perspiration and dirt can also affect pitch, so you may have to change your strings more often if you sweat a lot, or if you play in dirt.

--Play a lot. Like anything else, including tuning, the more you do it, the easier it gets. Your ear for pitch and string relationships becomes more acute.

There will still be times when you'll want to pitch the damn thing out the window, but hang in there!

Glenn//.

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

You will find that lowering the big bass E string slightly below standard pitch will help.
I also lower both B strings just below standard.
Now play a G chord and fine tune from there if needed.

If you have a fully compensated saddle made for the guitar, it will help a lot.
The compensation on the saddle will do the same thing as lowering the strings as I described.

 

[12stringer]

The guitar does tune well and holds it's tune (least as good as I hold mine but still is a pain getting it into tune, and having it stay there for a set w/o constant retuning.

Chazzan, when I put on a new set of strings I stretch them by pulling and wiggling them side to side once they are up to pitch....then I retune them as some now have gone a bit flat...then I hard strum for about a minute...then wiggle them again...then check tuning...that usually does it. This helps them to hold their pitch once you start playing.

Also I agree that the tuners (machine heads) may be loose or worn out. Definitely should be tightened or replaced.

I would also check the nut slot height...if they are too high, tuning becomes a major pain because whenever you fret a cowboy chord (1st 3 frets) you will cause those strings to go sharp while the open strings stay in tune.

As mentioned a compensated saddle will help (if you don't already have one).

Best of luck and enjoy that 12er!

 

[killdeer43]

No problems to report here, especially with the advent of electronic tuners. And I always keep my 12 tuned down to D, for whatever that's worth in the overall scheme of the 12-string cosmos.

And I really don't drink that much, in the overall scheme of THAT cosmos! :lol:

Joe

 

[pdxbohica]

"My electric never goes out of tune."
Bob Dylan while turning his acoustic guitar at the Paramount theater, Portland, Oregon, 1965.

My F212XL seems to hold tuning just fine except when the weather or temp changes. Tuned to A440 with light gauge strings. Takes about 2 minutes with a digital tuner to get it back in tune.

As stated up thread, tuning fluid helps 8)

 

[Scratch]

I agree those 12ers can drive ya bonkers, but there's just no better sound than one tuned in just right. I keep 'em tuned down a step to 'D' and capo quite a bit at various destinations up the neck. That causes most of my tuning difficulties, but I've become so accustomed to it, I can usually make the tuning adjustments without a tuner. Even more frustrating is having it tuned in with the electronic tuner, then to discover it' not in harmony with the mouth harp. Constant fine tuning adjustments; constant aggravation. I still love it!!!

 

[Bobby McGee]

If its a problem with getting it in tune, I have owned 12 strings that were very hard to tune, mostly due to intonation issues (or high nut, compensated saddle etc). If the problem is keeping it in tune, I would suspect the tuners.

I have had no problems with the 2 Guilds at all on either front.

Bobby.

 

[Brad Little]

Until about ten years ago I tuned with an "A" 440 fork and then by ear from there. Then I bought an Intellitouch, and found that even when it said it was accurate I still tweaked it a bit. Then I lost the tuner (it's in my practice space somwhere, just don't know where-that'll teach me to leave it out of its case). Recently bought a Petersen StroboFlip and it is definitely better for the 12. As to staying in tune, I never had a problem with the original tuners (they were Kluson six in line in '64), but opted for Schaller minis sometime in the 90s. If I had it to do over I would have gone to Waverly open backs or something like that just for less weight.
I'd check the tuners, could be something as simple as tightening the screw that holds the post on, or the gears may be a little worn after 35 years.
OTOH, when you do finally get it in tune the way you like, you could always weld it! :lol:
Brad

 

[john_kidder]

bought an Intellitouch, and found that even when it said it was accurate I still tweaked it a bit.

Hear, hear. There's quite a bit of audible variation available even when the needle is steady on centre - the ear will guide you to the right overtones and resonance when the tuning is bang on - still, if you're playing, if the room's noisy, etc., then the tuners will get it close enough for folk music. Probably even close enough for rock 'n roll, of which I know nothing at all. But for swing and jazz tunes, I need to hear those harmonics to get it just right. When the guitar is right on, there is some serious fun to be had playing swing tunes on a good 12.

 

[fronobulax]

Probably even close enough for rock 'n roll, of which I know nothing at all.

Why does that come off sounding like some kind of insult? :wink:

As a general rule, the more strings an instrument has the harder it is to get it in tune and keep it there. At last that's what I now believe after watching a professional harpist tune for 30 minutes. In the specific case of 12 strings, that plus string age, plus tuner condition as everyone else has already said.

On electronic tuners in general I sometimes find that the tuner thinks things are all right but my ear does not. I usually go back or change something and the tuner tends to change its mind. I will go with my ear in a pinch but if I have the time I get the best results when the tuner agrees with my ear.

 

[taabru45]

I also stretch the strings, pull them up a couple of times, not to stress the 'slots' then tune it to a note, from tuner, piano, whatever. and do the bottom e, the middle e (fretted) and the high e, then fret the high e at g, tune the g string etc...to fine tune the higher strings I hit the deeper string harmonic on the 12 th fret, and tune the higher string to it, as they are the same note. I also bounce the harmonic of one of the higher strings that are tuned the same to see how they sound. The thing is to balance the sound of the guitar, an the intonation may be slightly different than the tuners..........and they can always be used as a 6 string if all else fails. :lol: :lol: Steffan

 

[chazzan]

Thanks for the 2Cents! Though no one has ever advised me to solve a problem by getting drunk! at least since high school!!

I agree though with everyone though, and it confirms my thoughts: 12 strings are hard to tune, but sound great! and worth the extra effort.

Question: how do I know if the tuners are worn- they are the stock 1974 tuners- is there a way to tell? I do notice the strings do not change pitch corresponding to the subtle tuner movements, (especially on the low A and E pairs) and I know the stings are not hanging up at the nut. I stretch the strings out, and change them about every 6 months but the problem of tuning happens no matter how old the strings are.

Do you have suggestions for tuners? ones that fit exactly, or do I need to re-drill. I have heard the only exact fit ones are the PING tuners. or can I soak the old ones in WD40 to clean them (they are not dirty or rusted though) I did lubercate them with a little graphite.

Was playing the 12 string last night- and thought of you guys!

 

[adorshki]

What Jazzman said: gear ratios. 18:1 will give more precise fine tuning.. Also the teeth on the gears may be worn after all these years even if not yet visible. MIght show up under a magnifying glass though.

 

[john_kidder]

Here's a piece from Chicago Luthiers (http://www.chicagoluthiers.com/From%20o ... ners1.html)

• 
  FUNCTION OF THE TUNING HEADS
  Tuning the instrument.
  
  INDICATION OF PROBLEMS WITH THE TUNING HEADS
  
  Hard to turn; Turns without tuning guitar; Instrument won’t stay in tune.
  
  WHAT TO LOOK FOR: The most common complaint I get as a repairperson is that the customer’s instrument won’t stay in tune. Matter of fact, that’s one of the main reasons for writing this booklet; to help you keep your instrument playing in tune! If there are tuning problems, many times the player thinks the tuning heads (also called machine heads or tuners) are “slipping”. Most of the time, this is not the case. If the instrument is going out of tune, there are usually other reasons. Under normal conditions the tuning heads work fine and need little care.
  
  ADJUSTMENTS:
  
  CLOSED MACHINES.... the kind where you can’t see the gears, are lubricated and sealed at the factory and need no further maintenance. Often this type of machine has a small screw on the end of the button. This is used to change the amount of resistance between the gears, thus giving a stiffer feel to the tuner and holding the gears tighter. (See Fig. #1, left example) Do not over tighten this screw, a snug fit is best.
  
  OPEN MACHINES.... the kind where you can see the gears on the back, may be lubricated a couple of times a year with petroleum jelly or cork grease (which is used on woodwind instruments). Place a small amount of one of these on the tip of a toothpick and work it between the gears. Be sure to wipe off all excess grease. Too much lubricant can and will hold dirt and fuzz which will cause the gears to wear. On open machine heads, check the small screw in the middle of the gear. (See Fig. #1, right example) Check these for looseness, but be aware this screw only holds the tuner together, it dose not make the tuner feel tighter as with the closed tuners mentioned above.
  
  CAUTIONS: Do not over-tighten any of the screws on the tuning heads. If over-tightened, the gears of the tuning head will wear prematurely, therefore requiring replacement.

And from our old friends at Frets.com, More Good Stuff

 

[RussD]

Lots of good advice, from fine, knowledgable folk, but all from a distance.
Send it down to Austin and I'll take a look at it for you.
Should be able to get it diagnosed in a matter of months.
Really.

 

[adorshki]

And I'd be happy to give a second opinion, I'd only need about a month.

 

[wileypickett]

Recalling my first guitar (a 1966 Harmony), it seemed I could twist those tuners a good revolution or two without the tuning being affected AT ALL, while that tiny 1/32"s of a turn more altered the pitch by about a-step-and-a-half!

For years I thought this was standard operating procedure for all tuners.

But wIth good tuners, there should be NO PLAY, up or down. You shouldn't need to tune flat, and then raise the note to pitch, for instance.

If you do decide to replace your tuners, you will probably need to enlarge the existing tuner holes for new ones, especially if you're replacing six-on-a-plank style tuners with individual tuners.

DO NOT (repeat, DO NOT!) use a drill. Between the speed of the drill, its torque, and the "bite" of the drill bit, you can very easily mess up your headstock. (I've done it!)

And if, out of sheer perversity -- like because someone said not to -- you decide to use a drill anyway, put it in REVERSE, run it at the slowest possible speed, work from the back of the headstock and don't drill all the way through.

But the main reason not to use drills is that drill bits won't enlarge existing holes evenly from the center out, they'll enlarge it from a random outside edge of the existing hole.

This means that the center points of the new holes will be no longer be aligned, and ditto your new tuners.

The right tool for the job is a tapered reamer.

A reamer enlarges a hole evenly from the center out, so the centers will still be aligned, and because you're enlarging the hole by hand, you're forced to work slowly, just reaming as much wood as you need to, and you won't (can't!) tear the headstock up as you easily can with a drill, which is harder to control.

Remember too that since the ferrules, which go in through the front of the headstock, are smaller in diameter than the tuner housing, which goes in through the back, you won't need to enlarge the holes from the front (the pretty side!) -- only from the back,

Good luck!

Glenn//.