Truss Rod Nut Replacement

[adorshki]

i"m wondering if the truss rod isn't shifted in the neck.

I was wondering if the heel anchor of the rod may have deformed the wood a bit and been pulled into its "socket" from tension over the years, effectively extending the threads at the nut end, thus the unusual degree of tightening necessary? Not to rule out the "some necks naturally backbow" thing, that was new to me but also makes sense.

 

[kostask]

It can be that the truss rod itself has stretched slightly. I doubt that it happened at the threaded end, as then the the truss rod nut would not thread properly, and from what the OP is saying, it is threading properly.

The far end of the truss rod may have moved around, and it does happen, but not often. Some necks, due to the unpredictable nature of wood can back bow, and some necks are stiffer and others are softer. In this case, the neck is actually forward bowed, and the more than normal tightening of the truss rod is counteracting that. I got it wrong (sorry), a back bowed neck would need the truss rod loosened, not tightened, combined with heavier gauge strings. It also sort of brings up the question of what gauge strings are being used on the guitar, which is undefined at this point.

 

[bobouz]

In 2010, I purchased a new Gibson ES-330L from Musician's Friend that was sold as a Level 1 used instrument (essentially open-box). Upon arrival, it was mint, but the neck relief was excessive. I've been working on guitars since the mid '70s, so this of course seemed like no big deal. But after removing the TRC, I immediately noticed that the truss rod nut was down far on the rod, with a fair amount of the rod protruding beyond the north end of the nut. It appeared to me that the stock nut washer was embedded pretty deeply into the wood, as if the wood was perhaps a bit soft & was being compressed. Figuring it would eventually reach a stop point, I placed additional washers on the rod until the truss rod nut, when tightened, settled slightly above the end of the rod. In the following months, the truss rod needed additional tightening as the wood appeared to be compressing a bit further. Eventually though, it reached a point of stability, and it has remained spot on eleven years down the road.

Re luthiers, the last time I used one for anything was around 1980. One issue is that I live far from the big city, but also, I don't really trust them to take the same kind of care with my instruments as I do. So although I've purchased numerous used and vintage instruments, I assess them careful to assure I can make any needed repairs. That said, if the day does ever come that I feel the need to find a competent and experienced luthier in the big city, I’ll want to see a varied portfolio of their work, and one that hopefully includes examples of the type of work being considered.

As for that ES-330L, it remains with me and is one of my favorite electrics. Sure glad I didn't send it back!

 

[HeyMikey]

The one luthier I dealt with that diagnosed the problem correctly, to his credit, was Rick Cremer at Cremer Guitars in Aurora, IL. But putting in the Gibson replacement nut, as he did, was not enough of a solution. The nut had to be raised by the washers so that the socket could reach down far enough into the slot to tighten the nut without stripping it and without hitting the truss rod slot casing at the bottom. I basically had to tighten the nut more than what was possible before, which the washers allowed. It was only then I attained the correct neck tension/relief that eliminated the buzzing. The lesson is that for certain repairs, it does not pay at all to go to Joe Shmoe luthier. You really need to find the best.

You should tell him what you did to solve the problem. Then he’ll know for the next time he encounters this issue. He may still be a good guy to work with.

 

[Bear214]

I'm convinced now that the problem was the nut. I received a replacement Gibson nut today through eBay and it works. Still have to max tighten, though, which may point to a problem with the truss rod. I really don't want to go the route of replacing the truss rod, even if it is possible. Yesterday I thought I had a disaster on my hands with a broken truss rod, but it wasn't the case.

It's such a credit to these vintage Guilds that I didn't break it by overtightening the truss rod. They're virtually indestructible. I have a DCE5 that's even more indestructible.

 

[Bear214]

All is well that ends well. I completed the setup on the D-40 and it plays like mint. Saved myself a trip to the "luthier."

I do want to tell one luthier story since we're on the subject. I originally took it to Chicago Fretworks on Lincoln Ave., thinking the long-time buzzing I was hearing from the top two strings and some buzzing on the bottom end was because uneven frets and or a bad nut. These guys off the bat wanted me to do a full refret for $550 without even having checked out the guitar. I settled for replacing the nut and fret leveling, which was still about $220. As it turns out, the cause was the nut being bad. The part cost $8. To me, there is a big difference in whether the cause of buzzing is due to neck tension/relief or worn frets. To suggest to a customer to do something at an expense of hundreds of dollars without even knowing the cause is plain robbery. Most would fall for it, because they want to get their guitars fixed. On top of this, while I was in their shop they couldn't wait to sell me things like a humidifier. It was ridiculous.

Not every luthier is bad or dishonest, of course, but some are hustlers, let me tell you. I find the profession, with few exceptions, pretty shameful. I've also been playing for 30 years.

 

[kostask]

A good luthier would have shown you exactly what the problem was, in front of you. The luthier that I work with always shows people, no matter how new or experienced, what is wrong, in front of them, and explains what the problem is so that they understand. If there is a fret level required, he can show them the fret unevenness with a ruler or fret rocker. Showing somebody that the nut is bad is just as easy, just by fretting the string and having the buzz disappear.

The difference is that the people in your example above, are just salesmen who may have some knowledge of guitars. Real luthiers take pride in their work, and know that looking after people's guitars properly is going to generate more business in the long run. The people in your example were after the one-time "big score", and didn't care if you came back, or were happy. Real luthiers, whose reputation rides on every guitar and customer that comes in, don't work that way.

To see how a real luthier works, look up the youtube channel twoodfrd. This is a good example of how what I am describing a "real" luthier does things.

 

[adorshki]

It can be that the truss rod itself has stretched slightly. I doubt that it happened at the threaded end, as then the the truss rod nut would not thread properly, and from what the OP is saying, it is threading properly.

The far end of the truss rod may have moved around, and it does happen, but not often. Some necks, due to the unpredictable nature of wood can back bow, and some necks are stiffer and others are softer. In this case, the neck is actually forward bowed, and the more than normal tightening of the truss rod is counteracting that. I got it wrong (sorry), a back bowed neck would need the truss rod loosened, not tightened, combined with heavier gauge strings. It also sort of brings up the question of what gauge strings are being used on the guitar, which is undefined at this point.

You are correct and it got by me, too, although it didn't invalidate the concept of possible movement of the truss.

But stretching? Having a hard time getting my head around that one, it's got a low modulus of elasticity today.

 

[Bear214]

I abandoned using washers with the Gibson acorn truss rod nut, because that was not the optimal solution and still, the sound on the guitar was not optimal. I found the solution on Amazon, using a different sized nut with more surface area on the sides (Gibson pre-1950s nut) that my ratchet could hold on to better. I had nearly lost hope with the instrument after going through six different Gibson brass nuts, because of stripping. They only allowed me about two attempts to get the relief right, because of having to max tighten the rod, which caused the stripping. With the better sized nut, I was able to tighten without slipping to get the proper relief on the neck. Now its sounds like a 10. I think the fact that the instrument is 45 years old probably caused a permanent bow in the neck, which the truss rod has a tough time counteracting.

I cannot praise the instrument enough. The tone on this '76 D-40 is really spectacular, probably the best dread I've ever played. I even did the most foolish thing to it by trying to bend the truss rod backward into the slot after it had come out (wanting to put the truss rod cover back on) from repeatedly adjusting the nut, thinking I had damaged it because the tone became all crunchy with buzzing. Not so. It recovered with the new nut without any residual bad tone. A credit to the outstanding people that built these great instruments.

 

[Bear214]

You are correct and it got by me, too, although it didn't invalidate the concept of possible movement of the truss.

But stretching? Having a hard time getting my head around that one, it's got a low modulus of elasticity today.

Some necks, due to the unpredictable nature of wood can back bow, and some necks are stiffer and others are softer. In this case, the neck is actually forward bowed, and the more than normal tightening of the truss rod is counteracting that. I got it wrong (sorry), a back bowed neck would need the truss rod loosened, not tightened, combined with heavier gauge strings. It also sort of brings up the question of what gauge strings are being used on the guitar, which is undefined at this point.

There was too much of a forward bow due to 45 years of the guitar being strung that with a normal acorn nut the truss rod was not counteracting it enough. A person normally wouldn't know any better with the acorn nut, but that was part of the problem, because of not being able to tighten enough and stripping. I didn't know any better, nor the handful of luthiers that looked at it in the last 10 years. It was only by looking at the pre-1950s Gibson nut that I had the idea that type of nut would work better. This is where a really good luthier would know his business, but I did not encounter it, even after going to a number who are considered the best in Illinois. I had to find the solution myself. So happy I didn't have to replace the truss rod, because then it was over.

 

[cutrofiano]

A truss rod nut is one of the most complicated pieces of technical artwork that could possibly come out of a milling factory.
It is very hard to understand for an unexperienced (under 30 years of work experience) luthier...