Lobster reviews NS SFB-2

[mellowgerman]

Lots of complaints about the bridge and neck dive, which unfortunately seem to be fully justified with that particular specimen.

That said, he mentions series wiring? I would expect a much more mid-forward sound with both pickups engaged. That would also require a mechanically different switch than standard parallel and would go against the vintage schematic. A friend recently had to replace the selector on his NS and it was a regular parallel function switch.

EDIT: Lobster has admitted the error and corrected the series claim. Would have really baffled me if they had decided to make that change on these most recent ones from the factory!

Still, I'm glad he mentions the need for medium scale strings, which may save a lot of folks some otherwise wasted money. Also, good demonstration of the tones on tap, as always.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

Alls I know is I'm gonna roll him for them pants.

I'll be needin' 'em for the Bay City Rollers tribute band I'm planning...

 

[GGJaguar]

I'll be needin' 'em for the Bay City Rollers tribute band I'm planning...

 

[lungimsam]

1. Hipshot Ultralight tuners and a Comfort Strapp cured the neck dive on my Starfires, but I am glad he mentions they are neck heavy so maybe Guild will take note.
2. I agree they are overpriced for imported guitars, maybe Guild will take note.
3. I think the bridges and saddles are fine but does take some learning how to deal with their idiosynchrasies. Would be cool if they started putting modern bridges on, but not those Gibson type like the SFI split coil version has.
4. I like the narrower string spacing.
5. That was good he mentioned that you need medium scale length strings and not short scale length for the Starfire II.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

2. I agree they are overpriced for imported guitars, maybe Guild will take note.
3. I think the bridges and saddles are fine but does take some learning how to deal with their idiosynchrasies. Would be cool if they started putting modern bridges on, but not those Gibson type like the SFI split coil version has.
4. I like the narrower string spacing.

I've never had issues with the NS SFII type bridges, but I have a light right-hand touch and don't slap. I also prefer the narrow string spacing at the bridge saddles, but don't know of another, after-market bridge that offers that spec (19mm string-to-string seems to be the standard). The adjustable, Schaller "roller" bridges (like on the Pilot) can come close but are still not as narrow as the NS SFII (17mm string-to string). For that reason, if you're agitating for Guild to lower prices, asking them to get a proprietary bridge manufacturede at the same time probably isn't going to fly.

Though it may put me in the minority, I actually prefer the NS SFII-type bridge to the "barrel" bridges found on some Westerly basses and the DeArmond SFIIs. IMO, the main shortcoming of the NS SFII-type bridge is its lack of provision for individual string height adjustment short of shaving or shimming the individual, wooden saddles.

There's always the Gretsch, "Space Control" bridge which, though it might get you the desired, narrow string spacing, also lacks individual saddle height adjustments and also opens up the whole "floating bridge" issue (though I suppose you could pin it). Actually, I'm not even sure that Gretsch makes that bridge anymore.

 

[lungimsam]

Now that would be interesting. I like the roller saddles. And a chunky tailpiece could help offset the neck heaviness he was talking about.
I get along better with no individual string height adjustment saddle bridges anyway.

 

[mellowgerman]

I'm not sure the price is so unreasonable if you look at the rest of the market. It's unfair to compare it to the Epi Casady bass, because those are no longer made in Korea, now in Indonesia I believe. The more accurate comparison there would be to the new Guild split-coil Starfire. Take a look at Lakland Skyline instruments for starters and you'll see that a lot of Korean instruments are actually coming closer to $2000 new. Mexican Fenders have also doubled in price over the last decade. Then add the manufacturing complication of semi-hollow construction... our newly inflated economy has not been kind to us.

Regarding the bridge, it will be an endless love/hate debate, but as far as I understand, the NS basses were supposed to be built to the most sought after Starfire era, which dictates that bridge. However, the fact that the saddles may be made of such poor quality wood, causing them to break more easily than their vintage counterparts, and that they aren't filed properly so as to keep the string seated and not popping out of it's groove, is unfortunate and worth complaining about.
That Gretsch space control bridge terrifies me, because (far worse than not having individual height adjustment capability) it lacks individual intonation adjustment, pretty much guaranteeing that your A and/or D string(s) will be off. I guess I just don't understand the endless complaints about the original wood-saddle bridges, because I don't hear the same about the bridges on practically every flat-top acoustic guitar or bass... adjusting the Guild bass bridge is an absolute breeze in comparison.
That said, if someone absolutely cannot deal with the life-crushing pain and sorrow caused by the Guild bridge , you can always pay for a Dearmond/Guild counterpart (though the spacing is slightly wider and the mounting screws won't line up) or a narrow-spaced Hipshot bridge (though you'll have to deal with exposed and unused mounting screw holes) or 4 of the mono-rail style bridges or even an Alembic style bridge. There are plenty of options that will be workable, though they will cost money, will affect the sound and appearance, and won't be drop-in replacements.

If I could ask Guild to change one thing about the NS line, it would be the tuners. If import light-weights like the "Licensed" Hipshots are not an option, might as well go with basic Gotoh "mini" style tuners like they used on the Dearmonds... sure they wouldn't look like the vintage clover style tuners, but I think that's kind of a moot point anyway, given how massive the diameter of the current tuning posts is and how far the paddles stick out from the headstock. They already stray far enough from the 60's Guild appearance.

Anyway! Just a few morning coffee thoughts on this lovely and relatively cool Florida day.

 

[lungimsam]

I’m fine with the Harp bridge but took a while to master it.
All they need to do is use metal saddle pieces and then it will be fixed.
Some may be unable/unwilling to deal with it. You have to get intimate with it and spend the time to figure it out all the adjustments.

A floating bridge can adjust intonation by moving it and pivoting the E side further from the bridge pup. I think that is how all the old time players do it. Probly not as precise as individual saddle adjustments though. But I haven’t heard complains from Starfire guitar users, and that’s what they have-floating bridges.

 

[mellowgerman]

A floating bridge can adjust intonation by moving it and pivoting the E side further from the bridge pup. I think that is how all the old time players do it. Probly not as precise as individual saddle adjustments though. But I haven’t heard complains from Starfire guitar users, and that’s what they have-floating bridges.

Right, but the saddles are all in a straight line (no compensation). I've never had a bass that was intonated with all the saddles falling in a true straight line -- always a little stagger going on. Not to mention, changing the set of strings always requires re-adjustment. I've had numerous guitars and basses with floating bridges, but anytime you can't adjust individual string intonation, you always end up with the middle strings being flat or sharp depending OR like on my old Gretsch archtop, the best I could ever get was 5 strings properly intonated, with the low E being slightly flat. If I moved that side forward to correct the low E, then the A and D would be sharp.

 

[fronobulax]

To the extent that I follow the new market Korean made instruments are starting to be held in higher esteem than some of the other non-US manufacturers and MIK sometimes justifies a higher price.

I don't complain about intoning my B50 because there is nothing I can do about it. I have neither the skills or tools. But I can complain about the Guild bridge because I am supposed to be able to adjust it. It is not the easiest bridge I have had to adjust but once I figured it out I was glad to live with it. I am someone who believed it when a piece of equipment had a label that said "No user serviceable parts".

Some of the reports of experiments with brass saddles convinced me they weren't worth the effort. No one described the change in tone in a way that made the change sound appealing. My '67 had a wooden saddle split so I'd be curious about the frequency of NS saddles splitting before I claimed there was a new problem and a fix was needed. Is splitting a problem with the wood selection, the way the saddle is cut and finished, the choice of wood as a material (and remember early Starfires had plastic saddles) or a fundamental feature of the design?

I have been able to address neck dive issues with the right strap but a more excellent bass would not force strap choices on the player.

Just some scattershot comments in response to other comments.

 

[lungimsam]

I’ve had one saddle split and another actually break in half during play. But they can be titebonded glued back together on the slider and will hold under string tension.
It is an issue I think because I have heard others say theirs broke. You might be the fifth. When they are new on the NS models (at least the Guild sold replacements are) they fit crazy tight over the sliding paddles so there is constant outward pressure on the wooden pieces so they are bound to split sooner or later. One could carefully remove and file the slots to open them up a bit so they aren’t so tightly crammed on. But that may or may not open one up to the saddles sliding sideways on the bridge plate under string tension since they have that constant sideways pull of the strings on them. But that’s another issue with this bridge.

I guess Guild had no feedback on broken saddles from years 1960-2012, before developing the reissues, and may have very little now. Perhaps if more people told them about it they would include an extra warantee saddle set with each purchase, or just start making metal saddles.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

I have an NS SFI (old-style) and an NS SFII. I left the wooden saddles on the SFI and put some brass saddles (the ones that Peteybass was selling here back around 2016) on the SFII. I've never broken a wooden saddle and don't notice all that dramatic a difference in tone between the wood and the brass ones. The DeArmond and Westerly Starfires with the "barrel"-style bridge saddles are very different sounding (both from one another as well as from any SF loaded withBi-Sonics) but they are loaded with Gold Foil and Guild-Bucker pups, respectively, so that comes as no surprise and "muddies the water" as to how much the "barrel" bridge contributes to the difference in tone.

If it was a direct swap, swapping a "barrel" bridge onto an NS SF to find out what, if any difference that would make tone-wise, would be an interesting experiment. But (as mentioned by MellowG) that would require drilling new mounting holes.

 

[mellowgerman]

Another thing that confuses me is that none of my Starfires have had neck dive issues. Granted they have all been from '66-'70 except for the one 90's Dearmond outlier, but they have all balanced nicely with any strap (regardless of material or width). I will also note that I've had a number of basses that did have neck-dive to varied degrees, so it's not just a matter of neck-dive not being on my radar. The Epiphone EB-3 long-scale for example I actually got rid of because it was to such an unmanageable extent, but also before the idea of lightweight tuners solving the issue became so widespread. The Casady basses, Thunderbird basses (both Gibson and Epiphone), and Epiphone Rivoli all had a bit, but were manageable. My Gibson EB-0 (one of my favorite basses and a definite keeper) had a considerable amount of dive but that was also addressable with lightweight Sperzel tuners and a 3" strap.

Regarding the wood vs. brass saddles -- a friend of mine got a set and recorded before-and-after demos with all variables as equal as possible. He presented them to me in a blind test and I was able to discern a very very subtle thinner/brighter tone in the brass saddles, resulting in a correct identification. Probably wouldn't hold up in court since it was just that one blind test, but worth mentioning.

My Dearmond had the stock, Guild-aesthetic-cloaked Fender Mustang bridge, along with Dark Star pickups, and I do have a pretty good recording of it going through my old '68 Thunderstar Bass amp. Now that I have one of those amps again (once it's up and running) I'll try to record a demo with my '70 Starfire and see how close I can get to that Dearmond tone. Variables will be that the Dearmond had nicely broken-in, heavy gauge Fender flatwounds, the Thunderstar was of a slightly later era and correspondingly varied schematic in comparison to my newly acquired one, and the previous one was used through a speaker cab I no longer own. Also, the '70 has an early test-era Dark Star in the neck position and a Hagstrom spec Novak in the bridge position. Still, would be interesting if I can get close enough to make it difficult to discern a notable difference.

 

[Minnesota Flats]

Sounds like we may be talking subtle, "bedroom/practice" variations: nuances that would likely be lost in a mix and to general audience members' ears.

 

[fronobulax]

Sounds like we may be talking subtle, "bedroom/practice" variations: nuances that would likely be lost in a mix and to general audience members' ears.

I cannot recall the previous discussions successfully advocating for brass (and perhaps aluminum) saddles for their beneficial effect on tone, knowing that "beneficial" is subjective. But there may be a case for using them because they won't split as easily.

The whole saddle thing can be a rabbit hole because you can take your wooden saddles and with sandpaper or files change the string spacing or the stability of the saddles on the bridge. Only the player will notice those were done.

 

[lungimsam]

In the end I decided I like the wood better and I just keep extras around in case they break again. Probly would be pretty easy to buy some oak from Home Depot and make my own but haven’t tried yet. I’d choose oak because it is a very hard wood. I could file the slot in a way to reduce chances of splitting. Maybe custom design the shape to fit around the action grub screws for further travel.

My take:
Brass: Won’t break. Sounds a touch (and I mean almost undetectably) thinner/brighter, but slides across the bridge over time from the unfortunate sideways pull/string tension action of the NS harp bridges.
Wood: Sounds better/more powerful balanced tone to me. Not as thin. But the differences are probably undetectable in the concert hall. The wood saddles stay in place better and dont slide around much at all . Only downside is they break. Files easily for individual string height/guages. I think they look nicer than metal on the bridge.

 

[lungimsam]

Here’s an idea! Guild could just thicken the sliding saddle paddles to make them into “paddle-saddles”!!!! Just cut your string slots right into the paddles… Then no wood or brass saddle pieces needed.
Hmmm…
Using the current stock paddles would only lower the action by a mm or so and I do have plenty of room to raise the bridge if I decided to try this on my stock paddles. Hmmm… Do I dare?

 

[mellowgerman]

Here’s an idea! Guild could just thicken the sliding saddle paddles to make them into “paddle-saddles”!!!! Just cut your string slots right into the paddles… Then no wood or brass saddle pieces needed.
Hmmm…
Using the current stock paddles would only lower the action by a mm or so and I do have plenty of room to raise the bridge if I decided to try this on my stock paddles. Hmmm… Do I dare?

Over the years, we've actually seen a few vintage Starfire basses come up for sale where people have either lost or chosen to remove the saddles and correspondingly the strings just ran right over the little metal paddles. That said, I'd be worried that they may bend under string tension over time. Not necessarily the part that sticks up but the longer, flat part underneath, since the screw that fastens them is back a little from the actual point of pressure up front. That said, I haven't had a close look at the underside of these bridges in years, so I might be forgetting if there is something supporting them underneath