Incoming!

[fronobulax]

See this for informed speculation concerning reissue Starfire and M-85 basses made in New Hartford CT in 2012.

I'd say they are making them. The questions concern the size of the production run and the electronics. There is informed speculation here that suggests Fred "Dark Star" Hammon is providing the pickups.

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

Oh snap! If they really are using some variant of the bisonics on these, I may be in for one or two. I just sold my fretted SF-1, but I'd love an M-85 or even another SF to accompany my fretless '69.

 

[fronobulax]

Oh snap! If they really are using some variant of the bisonics on these, I may be in for one or two. I just sold my fretted SF-1, but I'd love an M-85 or even another SF to accompany my fretless '69.

Well if it's any consolation, if they are being done as a GSR that means there will be about 20-25 made of each, with a sticker price of $4000 or better which means the street price will be no better than $2,400.

 

[adorshki]

Well if it's any consolation, if they are being done as a GSR that means there will be about 20-25 made of each, with a sticker price of $4000 or better which means the street price will be no better than $2,400.

This may be only a bit more than "idle curiosity", but my first reaction was "I'll bet they're going to be GSR's", because it would fit with the GSR Starfire precedent help justify small volume electric production. That would also seem to justify dealers "holding price" based on limited edition production (which also leads to a bit more "affection for the brand" on dealers' parts), which leads to my real question: ARE you seeing such deep discounting on GSRs?

 

[fronobulax]

Well if it's any consolation, if they are being done as a GSR that means there will be about 20-25 made of each, with a sticker price of $4000 or better which means the street price will be no better than $2,400.

This may be only a bit more than "idle curiosity", but my first reaction was "I'll bet they're going to be GSR's", because it would fit with the GSR Starfire precedent help justify small volume electric production. That would also seem to justify dealers "holding price" based on limited edition production (which also leads to a bit more "affection for the brand" on dealers' parts), which leads to my real question: ARE you seeing such deep discounting on GSRs?

I haven't been obsessing over GSR prices since, so far, they have not made one I am interested in. I believe I have seen some GRSs go for 40% off after they have been on the market for a while, although I'm not sure I can tell you which ones. I figure no matter what, no one is going to offer better than 40% off list and they might stand firm on a lesser discount. Hence my waffle words to indicate that I was estimating a lower bound. What's really interesting to me is the comparison to today's vintage market. $2400 should probably get you a vintage Starfire II bass, 1970 or earlier, with only minor deviations from originality, a case, and in pretty good shape, even for a 40+ year old. On the other hand, if you take the same description, substitute M-85 for Starfire then the closest comparable sale I have seen was upwards of $3,000. Make the M-85 a post 1970 solid body and you get change from $2,000 unless you get stuck competing with Sheryl Crow wannabes.

And all my price comparisons go out the window if they make a radical change, such as a 34" scale or pickups that don't emulate the Bisonics very well. The former could be interesting since the Jack Casady Signature is long scale and hollow bodied.

 

[hieronymous]

what does "GSR" stand for?

 

[chazmo]

hieronymous... it's New Hartford's way of describing a small run (< 20) of guitars for dealer orders.

It stands for "Guild Special Run," but it was originally derived from Guild Summit Retreat (when dealers made custom orders at a special sales meeting at the shop back in 2009)...

FYI: viewtopic.php?t=26266

 

[adorshki]

I haven't been obsessing over GSR prices since, so far, they have not made one I am interested in. I believe I have seen some GRSs go for 40% off after they have been on the market for a while, although I'm not sure I can tell you which ones. I figure no matter what, no one is going to offer better than 40% off list and they might stand firm on a lesser discount. Hence my waffle words to indicate that I was estimating a lower bound.

Yes, I was only curious about the level of discount you may have observed, trusting your general recollection as opposed to needing refs to specific instruments.
And while I understand your observation about the market factors/construction details when comparing the used intruments values to new, for me, a trump card for new instruments is warranty. Supplementing that would be the "exclusivity" factor.
Maybe it would help explain my not-so-idle curiosity if I explained that I'd LIKE to see them pursue that "limited production/high end product" direction, hoping it would enhance the brand image in the market.

 

[hieronymous]

hieronymous... it's New Hartford's way of describing a small run (< 20) of guitars for dealer orders.

It stands for "Guild Special Run," but it was originally derived from Guild Summit Retreat (when dealers made custom orders at a special sales meeting at the shop back in 2009)...

FYI: viewtopic.php?t=26266

Thanks!

 

[ukulelelab]

This is really exciting news. If they ever see the light I really hope those Starfires and M85s are not GSRs. Perhaps Fred Hammon went AWOL for such a long time to secretly produce a large batch of Dark Stars for Guild (hopefully more than 100 of them). Fingers Crossed

 

[mellowgerman]

Nice. Very exciting on one hand, but on the other, I'd much rather opt for a vintage SFB-II with bisonics... and ESPECIALLY when they're cheaper than the new ones

 

[bassmanpatsfan18]

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... ?t=1151178

Looks like they will have Guild 'buckers. What a shame.

 

[fronobulax]

Comments in the Member's Only section including pics. I think I was the only person who actually played one through an amp. I had the Line 6 with me because it is easy to sneak into a room full of acoustic guitarists. After the amp did duty on stage I played one of the new SFs and Kurt's M-85's.

The specs are interesting. Take the revised body shape seen in the GSR Starfire guitar. Add NOS humbuckers from 1970-1977 and the bridge from the 1990's reissue and give it an almost candy red finish.

I only played the SF I and selected it because of the PU location in the ~1965 "sweet spot". I was impressed in that it had more definition and less mud than any sound my JS made but it did not quite hear the Bisonic growl of my '67. I'll note that Kurt's 1970 M-85 did not sound as much like my '67 SF as I had expected so maybe my ear or expectations need to be adjusted. Player and amp were the same for all comparisons.

If you are just a player or the kind of person is buying and selling basses every couple of years, the SF I or II is probably not a cost effective choice for you. At the expected price (which I'm guessing will top 2K on the street) they compete with the D'Armond Starfire, player quality pre-1970 vintage Starfires, their humbucker equipped brethren from the '70's and the reissue. Lots of choices for a player.

So you buy one if you are a collector, if you are willing to pay for new with warranty (which can be extremely important to people who like to understand how their relic'd guitar got that way), think the different shape is 'sexy' on an old friend and makes things new or don't have the time or that patience to deal with one of the alternatives in the used market. If the people who counted things are correct there are less than 20 of each model and about half the production is slated for Europe where I understand the price is a bit more competitive compared to the alternatives.

 

[fronobulax]

P.S. - I was told that the M-85 alluded to in the opening post, based on the picture, was not a successful prototype. Now that we know that the Guild electrics are a revival of a project that was started, then suspended for several years, it may be that the prototype is flawed or it may be that there just were not enough bodies to make it worth finishing and selling.

 

[mgod]

P.S. - I was told that the M-85 alluded to in the opening post, based on the picture, was not a successful prototype. Now that we know that the Guild electrics are a revival of a project that was started, then suspended for several years, it may be that the prototype is flawed or it may be that there just were not enough bodies to make it worth finishing and selling.

Can you explain that?

 

[chazmo]

mgod,

The long and short of it is tooling / money. New Hartford is not going to create fixtures and tooling to build products that would even fall below GSR numbers. We were told that these electrics pre-date the move to New Hartford, and recently they decided to take some of them forward to market.

Regarding basses, in particular, what you've got on your hands now is, in essence, an extremely limited-edition and irreplaceable (at least for now) set of NOS parts, plus some newly built stuff, to make these limited runs.

 

[chazmo]

I failed to mention one VERY important thing....





... they reserve the right to change their minds! Hell, if we keep buying T-500s and SF6s, who knows what'll happen!

 

[fronobulax]

P.S. - I was told that the M-85 alluded to in the opening post, based on the picture, was not a successful prototype. Now that we know that the Guild electrics are a revival of a project that was started, then suspended for several years, it may be that the prototype is flawed or it may be that there just were not enough bodies to make it worth finishing and selling.

Can you explain that?

What Chazmo said, but since after a certain age repetition helps...

The picture taken by a dealer on an April 2012 factory visit pretty clearly shows 2 Starfire type basses and one M-85, all with bodies and necks but nothing else. When I asked about the Starfires, I was told to wait until tomorrow (when the fact that there were some SF I and II basses being made was announced). When I asked about the M-85, I was told not going to happen. I probed and I figure one or more of the following is true but I don't know which one: Since the bodies were made several years ago and New Hartford is not tooled up to make any more at the moment there were not enough M-85 bodies to justify finishing them and trying to sell them; There were not enough suitable pickups and bridges to outfit both a run of Starfires and M-85s in sellable quantities; and/or there was some flaw in the construction of the M-85 bodies that did not meet the desired quality standards.