DeArmond version of M-85 ?

hearth_man

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Frono, a few years ago I would have gone looking for a vintage Starfire bass. In the past 6 months or so I've decided an M-85 was a better fit for a number of reasons I've mentioned. A vintage 1960s M-85 is not very realistic at this point, availability and cost as you've mentioned. So I think I'll give the NS M-85 a chance and see how I bond with it. I never really know until I've had it in my hands for a while. Tried it with different strings, amps and so on.

I have played but not owned an import Guild in the past. So that would be a change for me. The import Guilds do seem to be well made and many sound nice as well. Back in the Guild DeArmond days I owned a few, X-155, S-73-12 but could not bond with them.
 

hearth_man

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Well I finally got a hold of a 2015 NS M85 bass, well not physically yet but it's on it's way. If I bond with it I will decide about replacing the pickup with a Novak BS-DS or not. I emailed Curtis Novak, nice guy with a quick response, about this pickup and I think if I go that route I may purchase the neck pickup version even though the Guild pickup is in the bridge position. I would also use coil tap by adding a pull switch to the tone control.

I also hope to take some photos of the inside of the body. I'm very interested.
 

fronobulax

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Well I finally got a hold of a 2015 NS M85 bass, well not physically yet but it's on it's way. If I bond with it I will decide about replacing the pickup with a Novak BS-DS or not. I emailed Curtis Novak, nice guy with a quick response, about this pickup and I think if I go that route I may purchase the neck pickup version even though the Guild pickup is in the bridge position. I would also use coil tap by adding a pull switch to the tone control.

I also hope to take some photos of the inside of the body. I'm very interested.

I don't recall any difference between a neck and a bridge position electronically and am pretty sure you don't need the "Fender Bridge Riser" if you are just replacing a Guild bisonic with a Novak. I got the coil tap and it was very much worth it.
 

hearth_man

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That is what I was thinking as well but according to Curtis you can put the neck pickup in the bridge no problem, they are the same string spacing(one of my concerns). And that "the only difference is the neck is a lower wind and is reverse wound for hum cancelling, as a set".

The reason I was thinking of using the neck version is that in the NS M85 the pickup is solidly in the bridge position. Typically a very bright location.

I would be interested in your thoughts on that idea for replacing the NS M-85 Guild pickup.

Thanks in advance.
 

fronobulax

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When I made my choices circa 2016 there was no difference between the bridge and the neck PUs if the use was to install them in a single PU guitar. You definitely had a choice to make if your instrument was going to have two PUs. You may have needed additional mounting hardware but that is probably unlikely if you are replacing a Bisonic. String spacing does matter but that is just a measurement.

But Curtis will make sure what you get shipped works so this is more about getting it right the first time.

IMG_20160411_154400284_HDR.jpg

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mavuser

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My GSR M-85-II has double Novaks, both with the coil tap, and they are definitley a bridge and neck pickup by design (whatever that means or does not mean)...

In short, my advice, which I was going to post earlier, but now I see Frono has made a post that I can simply agree with...is to simply tell Curtis exactly what you have, and have him decide what you need, and buy that!
 
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hearth_man

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Frono that is a very nice bass. Do you find the pickup too bright at all? That is my concern with a single bridge pickup on a bass. I normally like the idea of the single neck position pickup like the 60's version of the M85.

Good advice, before I order any pickup I will certainly measure the string spacing.
 

fronobulax

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Frono that is a very nice bass. Do you find the pickup too bright at all? That is my concern with a single bridge pickup on a bass. I normally like the idea of the single neck position pickup like the 60's version of the M85.

Good advice, before I order any pickup I will certainly measure the string spacing.

@mavuser has parleyed and/or heard the Betts Bass so anything he says does not need a grain of salt.

I don't find it too bright at all. I may have more comments when the adult beverages wear off :)
 

mavuser

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the bridge pickup could sound on the brighter side if the bass is maple or spruce. if mahogany, it sounds much closer to the neck pickup, not bright, but still a *touch phasey/nasaly/bridgey...with the tone set at 10(that is to say, quite good). plus u can switch it to the bisonic. I have heard (and played for a moment) Frono's bass, and would not consider it bright. It sounded like a bisonic loaded mahogany JS-1, to me. Novak really nailed it on these pickups. the Dark Star in the bridge position sounds absolutley wonderful. I'm not sure that any tonewood could change it so much? but I don't know.

I have owned two Hoboken SF-2 basses, both maple sunburst, both with original Bisonics, one pre suck switch and one post suck switch. On both of them, the OG Bisonic was noticeably brighter on the bridge pickup (but still very warm and punchy). I am no professional, but it seemed like one would only use that bridge pu higher up the neck (it sounded great if I was playing past the 12th or 14th fret zone!). But I honestly like the look of SF-1's better, aesthically, and sold my SF-2's. Then when my M-85 came along I sold everything else.

In your scenario, I would wait until you recieve the NS M-85 and play it for a few days with the NS pickup (if anything that pickup sounds a little light, or bright, or both...but u can find a sweet spot on it with the tone knob and your amp). So play that and see what you think. Feel it out a little. You may decide you just want a neck pickup and that is that, in which case I give u full LTG clearance to mod that thing into an M-85-II. You may not need to do that, but if you do, you only need the Bisonic in the neck and Dark Star in the bridge, not the pull pots. That is what I should have done with my GSR M-85-II, which I am actually back to troubleshooting again. hoping it is just the pickup selector switch. otherwise it's extraction #3 (or is it #4?)

Of course if u *must have the pull pots on a double M-85, the NS is much deeper, and if u cut in a neck pickup, than for the luv of anything and everything that is good in this world, please just cut in a back door!

For me it just seemed like the double wind BS/DS was worth the extra $40 per pickup, which of course on its own, or in a different bass, that is not the GSR-M-85-II, it obviously is...but for me it was something I just was not experienced enough to see that it was too much. It will be nice when it's all sorted out, and it could have been easier from the beginning if I really thought it thru. But if I *really thought it thru, I would have just gotten one Bisonic (neck) and one Dark Star (bridge)

I will say I have had full use of the neck pickup the entire time, both BS and DS, and that sounds glorious. when I tinker and get the bridge and middle, it does all work flawlessly. but bridge and middle keep going silent. praying it is just the pu switch, or the connection at that switch. honestly might be while before I address it again. but i will
 
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hearth_man

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The 2014 NS M85 came in yesterday and is in like new condition. It looks like it was played a couple times and put away. Originally I thought it was a 2015 model but according to the included factory inspection tag it is a 2014 model. I played it a little to make sure everything functioned properly and I am in the process of removing the original strings, and they look to be original factory strings, cleaning it up a bit and then restring it. Once I get it restrung I will be spending some quality time with it but my first impressions are that it is a very well made bass and very comfortable, especially when playing while seated. The small body, 13-3/4" wide and 2-3/4" deep, has nice proportions with almost an acoustic guitar feel. I really like the thin neck, 1.5" at the nut, and short scale combination. As I said earlier this the first import Guild guitar I have purchased, I had a couple DeArmond by Guild guitars back in the day that I could not bond with, and I am very satisfied so far.

The other thing I did last night was to remove the pickup and do a little investigating inside the body to see what was what before restringing it. As stated in the specs it is a semi hollow body bass with a separate block of wood down the center from neck to tail. However in the area between the pickup and the neck the block is cutout away from the top. Only a thin section of the block continues along the back. Interesting. (I will post photos in the Tech forum area)

Along side the M65.
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hagmeat

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Congrats ! Glad you like it. I had one for a brief period but found the body a little too wide for me. Also, it sounded too similar to my Newark St.Starfire so it would have been redundant to keep both. Different strokes for different folkes !
 

hearth_man

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Well I received the much awaited Novak BS-DS pickup with coil tap yesterday and jumped on it last night. I was able to remove the original Guild NS BS-1 pickup electronics and modified them for use with the Novak pickup. The main difference was the need for a coil tap switch which was easily accomplished by replacing the original 500k tone pot with a 500k CTS pot with DPDT push/pull switch (only needed a SPDT for this application). I didn't run into any issues, this was a smooth modification.

In my opinion the Novak BS-DS pickup made a huge improvement in the sound of this bass! The sound is now articulate and full range in both modes, full coil and coil tap. I have an expanded range of very useful sounds now. When I play closer to the neck I now clearly hear the wood! The Novak pickup really has brought this M85 bass to life. To be honest if I had to keep the original Guild NS BS-1 pickup I would probably have sold this bass. Even though I really like the look and feel of this bass as I said in an earlier post when I first picked it up, the pickup sounded dull and lifeless.

I wanted to thank Sandy, Eric, Chaz, Mellowgerman and Frono as well as everyone else on LTG that has added info on this subject. You were all very helpful in my decision to buy this bass and then to upgrade the pickup!

I have included a few quick phone photos (Guild NS BS-1 on left / Novak BS-DS on right in pickup photos), pardon the quality.
 

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edwin

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GSR is a *fully hollow* body for sure, the only M-85 that was ever made that way. it is a touch thinner than a vintage SF bass, but not by much, it is very very close (I have mine in a Cassady/SF bass case, and the depth is fine) It is a shame only 13 of those GSR M-85's appear to have been made.
Excepting the custom on off they made for Phil that was in the hands of Dan Schwartz (RIP). I wonder where it ended up.
 

mavuser

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Excepting the custom on off they made for Phil that was in the hands of Dan Schwartz (RIP). I wonder where it ended up.

I have been wondering that myself, but I think Dan knew the end was near, and likely made appropriate arrangements for his instruments. I know that bass that was made for Phil had F-holes, and I beleive was the full depth of the 60's semi-hollow M-85's. I myself do not recall if it was fully hollow or semi hollow. But I trust your information to be accurate. Dan apparently also owned some sort of newer custom M-85, that was possibly the same specs as the GSR, made prior to the GSR at some point, by Chris Flemming. I never got the full story on that.
 
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