D25 - Is It Worth Fixing??

[jcorlando]

Regarding wet sanding the finish. Possibly I could find someone who could repair the dings?

Any recommendations in the Baltimore/Washington DC area????

I know I'm now dropping some money on this, but it would be in the name of saving the wonderful Made in America Guilds.

 

[kostask]

Regarding the resetting the neck on the old D25 versus planning the fingerboard..

The luthier is John Warden. He is a licensed Martin repair luthier. He highly respected in the Baltimore Washington area. He worked on a lot of recording artists guitars.... that being said.

His opinion was the neck was integral to the body of the guitar in such a way that resetting it would be cause more damage than planning the fingerboard. He also said that once the neck had moved, it was done moving. And it would not need be planned or reset again.

The luthier is completely wrong. Perhaps he hasn't worked on Guilds before, and the wider/flatter than Martin neck heel throws him off, but there have never been any steel string Guild acoustic guitars that didn't have a neck joint that didn't come apart (i.e. they ARE NOT INTEGRAL), no matter what his opinion is. They have just not been built that way. There are some guitars that do have integral neck joints, but they are classical (nylon string) guitars with the so called spanish heel, and not even all of them have integral necks. Even unconventional guitars like Ovations can have their necks removed (Ovations and early Yamaha steel string guitars used epoxy to glue the neck joint, but with some effort, even their neck joints can be separated).

You may still need to have the fingerboard planed after the neck reset, but that is a judgement call after the neck reset geometry has been worked out. There is no reason to be planing a fingerboard unless absolutely necessary, and there is no reason to be shaving a bridge down. The neck needs to be reset so that a good break angle is achieved with a correct height (defined by the factory) bridge, with a reasonable saddle height in place. Ask this luthier if he would ever contemplate doing this with a Martin.

Sorry to be as blunt as this, but find another luthier, and preferrably a good one who has experience with guitars other than Martins. He may be Martin licensed, but its sort of having a Mercedes Benz trained mechanic working on your Ferrari. He may be a great Mercedes Benz mechanic, but out of his element with Ferraris. In this case, he may be a great Martin luthier, but seems to be out of his element with Guilds. Whatever Guild experienced luthier you do end up going with, I doubt that it will be any more expensive, and may even be cheaper, depending on the associated work that goes with it (refret or fret dress, saddle and/or nut work). The same Guild experienced luthier may be able to help with the dings, or at least drop fill them to the point where they at least protect the wood.

Kostas

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Regarding the resetting the neck on the old D25 versus planning the fingerboard..

The luthier is John Warden. He is a licensed Martin repair luthier. He highly respected in the Baltimore Washington area. He worked on a lot of recording artists guitars.... that being said.

His opinion was the neck was integral to the body of the guitar in such a way that resetting it would be cause more damage than planning the fingerboard. He also said that once the neck had moved, it was done moving. And it would not need be planned or reset again.

Let's try this. Here is a neck removed from a D25. It's a dovetail neck joint, just like a Martin. Show the man these photos. Ask why he can't do this.

If that doesn't convince you the man is wrong, nothing will. Get a second opinion, you will be happier in the long run.

 

[jcorlando]

I need to do some more research.
I will repair my Guild.

I have been given a responsibility to care for this work of art.
and I will care for it.

Thanks for every all your posts.
I'll look at fixing some the dings and cosmetic blemishes.

John in Annapolis.
------------------------------------------------
Guild D25 1978 Spruce top, Cherry Finish

 

[killdeer43]

I need to do some more research. And,
I will repair my Guild.
And I'll look at fixing some the dings and cosmetic blemishes.

Now you're talking.
Be sure to keep us posted and send pics. :wink:

Joe

 

[GardMan]

From what I have read, it is true is that Guild finished their guitars after the neck was set. Apparently other makes attach the neck after the parts are finished. From what I hear, it is important to score the finish at the neck seam with a blade before starting the neck removal... to avoid massive chip out of the finish when the neck comes off.
D

 

[kostask]

It wasn't just Guild, a few other major makers did that, too (Gibson for one). It should have been easy to check if the neck was integral just by looking at the direction of the wood grain at the neck heel (from the outside), and inside the guitar at the neck block. To be honest, I think the luthier just didn't want to do the work, and this was a good way to get out of it. Either way, because of either inexperience with Guilds (and somewhat suspect luthier skills, to be honest) or because he didn't want the work, I would be looking to have somebody else do the work.

Kostas

 

[Telenator]

I recently pulled the neck off my D15M and let me tell ya, it's no joke! I have never seen another neck so tenaciously attached to an acoustic guitar in my life! They glued inside and outside the dove tail and the entire surface where the neck heel meets the body. I mauled the fret board so badly that I simply opted to build a new neck to go with the new sitka spruce top I put on the guitar. (photos coming soon)

I don't know if all Guilds cling to their necks like this one did but, I'd be tempted to explore some other options as well. We have to look at it sensibly. Yes, we love our Guilds, but at what point are we spending way more than they're worth to repair them?

 

[jcorlando]

I'm starting to fall in love with my D25. I got the guitar in High School back in '82. The guitar was just 3 years old. The frets were already showing some wear and it came with a 'soft' cardboard case. I'd seen a lot of Rock and Rollers trash their guitars on stage. Some how I thought this was just some old cheap no nothing guitar. And I think the guitar trashing diminished my appreciation for the art of the guitar.

I closeted the guitar for at least the last 10 years. I pulled it out of the closet. Restrung it. and was blown away with the charming mellow sound. I falling in love with this great piece of musical art. I gave it a new hardshell case. I'll restore this baby. I'll probably spend more on the guitar than the street value. But what can you say when it's love. I'll post some pictures.

Thank you all at Let's Talk Guild. Because of your appreciation, I've come to appreciate this piece more and more.

John in Annapolis.
------------------------------
'78 D25 Cherry

 

[fronobulax]

I'm starting to fall in love with my D25. I got the guitar in High School back in '82. The guitar was just 3 years old.

1) Welcome to LTG.
2) The quote above seems to me to contain the answer to "should you fix it?". While you might be able to get another D-25 at close to the quoted repair price, it wouldn't be "yours".
3) At some point the emotions will overrule the finances and you are likely to decide that keeping that guitar playable (including fixing cosmetics, if they bother you) is important regardless of cost. If you sink $800 (which is probably more than the guitar will be worth after repairs) into repairs now and are happy playing it for 10 more years, that is less than $7/month. Would two lattes per month make you as happy?
4) The fact that a well known and respected luthier worked on a guitar (as opposed to building it) is probably not a selling point and is unlikely to increase the value.
5) I agree with the suggestion that you get a second opinion on the repair. I have no experience with either but "friends of friends" have recommended The Guitar Shop and Action Music which should be close to local.

 

[Ross]

there have never been any steel string Guild acoustic guitars that didn't have a neck joint that didn't come apart (i.e. they ARE NOT INTEGRAL)

Kostas is correct, as usual. I have a couple of additional questions:

When you say "shave the bridge" do you mean shaving the plastic saddle that fits into a slot in the wooden bridge, or the wooden bridge itself? The first is routine, the second should be avoided.

How does the neck line up relative to the bridge? If you place a straightedge along the neck (atop the frets) where does it contact the bridge? If it contacts the top of the wooden bridge, the neck angle is fine, but if it contacts the side of the bridge between the bridge top and the top of the guitar body, the neck angle has altered. Shaving the saddle will help to alleviate the symptoms by lowering the strings, but the situation will likely continue to deteriorate and a neck reset will eventually be required.

I had extensive surgery done to my 1982 D-25 about a year ago, for about the same cost as your estimate. The bridge plate (inside the body, under the bridge) had cracked and the bridge was lifting. The cracked plate had to be removed (a labour-intensive process - most of the cost was in this procedure), replaced and the bridge re-glued. The neck angle reamains fine. I realize that a reset may be necessary in the future (most guitars succumb to string tension eventually), but I've reduced the risk by using light strings and tuning down a half-step.

I had no hesitation about paying that amount of money for repairing my D-25. It is exactly what I want in a guitar, so it was worth the cost to me.

 

[chazmo]

I'm starting to fall in love with my D25. I got the guitar in High School back in '82. The guitar was just 3 years old.

1) Welcome to LTG.
2) The quote above seems to me to contain the answer to "should you fix it?". While you might be able to get another D-25 at close to the quoted repair price, it wouldn't be "yours".
3) At some point the emotions will overrule the finances and you are likely to decide that keeping that guitar playable (including fixing cosmetics, if they bother you) is important regardless of cost. If you sink $800 (which is probably more than the guitar will be worth after repairs) into repairs now and are happy playing it for 10 more years, that is less than $7/month. Would two lattes per month make you as happy?
4) The fact that a well known and respected luthier worked on a guitar (as opposed to building it) is probably not a selling point and is unlikely to increase the value.
5) I agree with the suggestion that you get a second opinion on the repair. I have no experience with either but "friends of friends" have recommended The Guitar Shop and Action Music which should be close to local.

Hi John, welcome to LTG.

I completely agree with frono here. Knowing the background story here, it's my opinion that you should absolutely save this guitar. And, I also agree with the other folks that planing the fingerboard and bridge is only a temporary fix; there are folks out there who will take on a Guild neck reset, though as earlier indicated many luthiers have shied away from that because they are unfamiliar with Guild's process. I can almost guarantee that it will be worth it to you in the long run to save this guitar for another 30 years of love.


Anyway, again, welcome, and I look forward to hearing the tale of this axe restored. There is a really strong D-25 lover contingent here, so you will get no end of support and encouragement in your quest.

Also, one other thing... Once you get accustomed to being around older guitars as a lot of us have around here, the business of dings, scratches, and buckle rash (let alone cracks) becomes far less important in the "value" (to you) of the guitar than all the other factors. It's even better because you don't worry about a lot of things that other people do. You should hang out with the Taylor owners over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum.... Some of these guys barely even uncase their guitars, let alone allow friends to use them, all in the hope of not causing any damage.

Just remember... WIth Guilds it's "made to be played." SOunds like you already grok that!

 

[chazmo]

.

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Should I repair my Guild D25, 1978???

I have a Guild D25, 1978, cherry finish, made in Westerly, RI.
It's 32 years old. It's mellow and sounds beautiful.
But, it has dings on the soundboard, side, head and has buckle rash. The action is high.

A very respected luthier, John Warden in Woodstock, Maryland, has offered to fix the guitar's action.
He'll defret it, plane the neck straight, refret it and lower the bridge.
He'll add a piece of wood under the bridge to compensate for the lowered bridge.
The action will be perfect, no buzz, no dead spots. The sustain will be longer.

So here's my dilemma. The repairs will cost about $425.
The guitar will sound beautiful. It will play perfect.
But cosmetically it won't be pretty. It won't be a show piece.
I have no idea what it will sell for or what it will be worth?

So is the guitar worth repairing??
Any Thoughts?

John in Annapolis

Any chance that you are the origional owner?
A warranty would cover some of the work.

 

[kitniyatran]

Regarding wet sanding the finish. Possibly I could find someone who could repair the dings?

Any recommendations in the Baltimore/Washington DC area????

I know I'm now dropping some money on this, but it would be in the name of saving the wonderful Made in America Guilds.

http://www.appalachianbluegrass.com/repair.html


Appalachian Bluegrass Shoppe

643 Frederick Rd., Catonsville, MD, 21228

410-744-1144

1-800-845-8456

Email: abs@toad.net

 

[adorshki]

I need to do some more research.
I will repair my Guild.

I have been given a responsibility to care for this work of art.
and I will care for it.

Thanks for every all your posts.
I'll look at fixing some the dings and cosmetic blemishes.

John in Annapolis.
------------------------------------------------
Guild D25 1978 Spruce top, Cherry Finish

A fine point about the "shave the bridge" solution that I didn't see mentioned is that this probably WILL affect the volume of the instrument. It's due to the "break angle" of the strings over the saddle being lowered as Kostask described. This means less string pressure and vibration getting to the top, no matter what he does with the piece underneath it. And like everyone else says it's only a delay of the inevitable. Your other post about "falling in love with the guitar" is the REAL measure of "worth". Worth is only a relative term, it's different for everybody. Fronobulax's "cost per month" analysis was a great way to look at it.
And when you're all done you'll be able to hang out here with lifetime bragging rights! :mrgreen:

 

[marcellis]

Fix it and keep it.

Exactly the right answer. I never regret paying to repair & restore my 1972 D25.
But shop around. Maybe you need a neck re-set.

I gave my old 72 to my son. And it's special to him too.

As far as the dings go, click on my sig (1972 D25 restoration).
Is yours as banged up as mine was?

 

[jwsamuel]

Guilds necks were not meant to be taken off and reset.
as opposed to Martins whose necks come off fairly easily.

The major difference between a neck reset on a Guild or Martin is that Guilds are finished after the neck is attached, so you have to be careful to cut the finish along the neck joint before you try to remove the neck. If you do not, the finish will crack and chip. Martins are finished before the neck is attached, so there are no worries about the finish chipping.

Jim