Best ways to learn theory?
- Thread starter Darryl Hattenhauer
- Start date
204084
Member
I'm by no means an expert on anything regarding theory but I think Bing K and 12 string offered the best advice. Ear training is something I'm working on here lately. And something Bing K said about backing into theory using what you already know...I do that a lot lately, trying to understand what I already play...and I get so into the theory side of it, I wander off into territory that I've never played before so much that I not only forget where I was going and why, I often forget how I got there and what I was playing yesterday...and I'm loving it!
My only suggestion would be to concentrate on learning the major scales and the steps in between each note. I think everything starts with learning the steps to the major scales, then everything kinda starts falling into place with the theory thing. You know, like the minor scales are simply the major scales starting on the 6th note of the major scale.
My only suggestion would be to concentrate on learning the major scales and the steps in between each note. I think everything starts with learning the steps to the major scales, then everything kinda starts falling into place with the theory thing. You know, like the minor scales are simply the major scales starting on the 6th note of the major scale.
jte
Member
OK here's my dogmatic answer...
First, understand that theory is all about what generally works- it's not hard and fast rules, but an attempt to explain in a logical fashion what works most of the time. That is to say, there are only two ironclad rules of music theory, and they're related to each other. The first rule is "If it sound good, it's right". The second rule is "If it sound bad, it's wrong". Of course there's a lot of subjectivity in what and who defines "sounds good" and "sounds bad". So understand that theory is simply a way to explain what sounds good to most people most of the time. My grandmother always thought that minor third against a major chord was WRONG, but that's the sound of blues that hooked me on learning music.
Second- Get a copy of "Edly's Music Theory For Practical People" [http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html]. I HIGHLY recommend this book because:
A. It's well written with great graphics
B. It doesn't assume that all theory is based on western classical music, or jazz. He talks about a lot of different kinds of music
C. It doesn't assume you play piano or that you can read music ('though he makes a great case for taking the time to learn the language or music)
Many of the diagrams are what I drew by hand decades ago when I was teaching full time (although his are actually legible).
Third- Learn in a logical manner. I think you need to understand the diatonic major scale as the basis for everything else. And "knowing" a scale has just about nothing to do with playing it up and down the neck in 16ths at 180 BPM. "Knowing" in this case means:
A. You know how the scale is constructed- that is, you KNOW it's W W H W W W H
B. You can derive for yourself the names of the notes (correct enharmonics is important) in any key. On paper is where it starts, but it's not hard at all to figure out in your head if you think things through. That means you can figure out that the key of A is A B C# D E F# G#, and you know WHY it's G# and not Ab.
C. You can find the notes of the scale on the neck and execute it over two octaves at least in a steady tempo in any key.
D. Whenever you play the scale, you know what the next note should sound like BEFORE you play it.
Fourth once you OWN the major scale look at basic chord construction. Learn both from scale degrees (e.g. the major chord is 1, 3, 5; minor is 1, b3, 5; 7th is 1, 3, 5 b7, major 7 is 1, 3, 5, 7, etc.) AND with intervals (major is a major third with a minor third stacked on top, a minor chord is a minor third with a major third on top, etc.) You should learn how to build chords and figure out what notes make a chord in any key for:
Major triad C 1 3 5 C E G
minor triad Cmin 1 b3 5 C Eb G
Dominant 7 C7 1 3 5 b7 C E G Bb
Major 7 CMaj7 1 3 5 7 C E G B
Minor 7 Cmin7 1 b3 5 b7 C Eb G Bb
Diminished tirad Cdim 1 b3 bb5 C Eb Gbb (and why it's a double flat 5, not a sharp 4)
Augmented Caug 1 3 #5 C E G#
Fifth learn the harmonized scale- that is learn WHY the I and IV are major 7, why the ii, iii, and vi are minor 7, why the V is a dominant 7, and why the vii is a minor 7 b5 (and only a diminished if you only go to the triad).
At each step you need to be able to execute this stuff on guitar, but the theory isn't so much about PLAYING this stuff as sit is about knowing how things go together.
This foundational study will allow you to figure out and understand the WHY instead of memorizing the same stuff. LEARN and MEMORIZE ain't the same thing. So build your study so each step builds on the previous one. SING every exercise you play so it's not just a mental and physical thing, but include the all important aural training too.
Have fun too, because it really is cool to be able to see how "Here, There, And Everywhere" is such a tidy composition with it's I, ii, iii progression, to see why Jack Bruce's intro bass line on "Badge is simply the Amin arpeggio, why you can play a three note GBD way up the neck while the other guitarists are bashing out an open E minor chord and it WORKS great.
John
First, understand that theory is all about what generally works- it's not hard and fast rules, but an attempt to explain in a logical fashion what works most of the time. That is to say, there are only two ironclad rules of music theory, and they're related to each other. The first rule is "If it sound good, it's right". The second rule is "If it sound bad, it's wrong". Of course there's a lot of subjectivity in what and who defines "sounds good" and "sounds bad". So understand that theory is simply a way to explain what sounds good to most people most of the time. My grandmother always thought that minor third against a major chord was WRONG, but that's the sound of blues that hooked me on learning music.
Second- Get a copy of "Edly's Music Theory For Practical People" [http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html]. I HIGHLY recommend this book because:
A. It's well written with great graphics
B. It doesn't assume that all theory is based on western classical music, or jazz. He talks about a lot of different kinds of music
C. It doesn't assume you play piano or that you can read music ('though he makes a great case for taking the time to learn the language or music)
Many of the diagrams are what I drew by hand decades ago when I was teaching full time (although his are actually legible).
Third- Learn in a logical manner. I think you need to understand the diatonic major scale as the basis for everything else. And "knowing" a scale has just about nothing to do with playing it up and down the neck in 16ths at 180 BPM. "Knowing" in this case means:
A. You know how the scale is constructed- that is, you KNOW it's W W H W W W H
B. You can derive for yourself the names of the notes (correct enharmonics is important) in any key. On paper is where it starts, but it's not hard at all to figure out in your head if you think things through. That means you can figure out that the key of A is A B C# D E F# G#, and you know WHY it's G# and not Ab.
C. You can find the notes of the scale on the neck and execute it over two octaves at least in a steady tempo in any key.
D. Whenever you play the scale, you know what the next note should sound like BEFORE you play it.
Fourth once you OWN the major scale look at basic chord construction. Learn both from scale degrees (e.g. the major chord is 1, 3, 5; minor is 1, b3, 5; 7th is 1, 3, 5 b7, major 7 is 1, 3, 5, 7, etc.) AND with intervals (major is a major third with a minor third stacked on top, a minor chord is a minor third with a major third on top, etc.) You should learn how to build chords and figure out what notes make a chord in any key for:
Major triad C 1 3 5 C E G
minor triad Cmin 1 b3 5 C Eb G
Dominant 7 C7 1 3 5 b7 C E G Bb
Major 7 CMaj7 1 3 5 7 C E G B
Minor 7 Cmin7 1 b3 5 b7 C Eb G Bb
Diminished tirad Cdim 1 b3 bb5 C Eb Gbb (and why it's a double flat 5, not a sharp 4)
Augmented Caug 1 3 #5 C E G#
Fifth learn the harmonized scale- that is learn WHY the I and IV are major 7, why the ii, iii, and vi are minor 7, why the V is a dominant 7, and why the vii is a minor 7 b5 (and only a diminished if you only go to the triad).
At each step you need to be able to execute this stuff on guitar, but the theory isn't so much about PLAYING this stuff as sit is about knowing how things go together.
This foundational study will allow you to figure out and understand the WHY instead of memorizing the same stuff. LEARN and MEMORIZE ain't the same thing. So build your study so each step builds on the previous one. SING every exercise you play so it's not just a mental and physical thing, but include the all important aural training too.
Have fun too, because it really is cool to be able to see how "Here, There, And Everywhere" is such a tidy composition with it's I, ii, iii progression, to see why Jack Bruce's intro bass line on "Badge is simply the Amin arpeggio, why you can play a three note GBD way up the neck while the other guitarists are bashing out an open E minor chord and it WORKS great.
John
jte
Member
BTW, in my opinion, modes are so often instructed and explained in such a way that they're really kind of pointless unless you're playing actual modal music. If you're playing music with chord changes, knowing the chords (and how they relate to each other) is much more practical and useful than trying to get around modes.
Modes are NOT just the major scale started on a different note. That's a simplistic and limited way to think of them. It's really not that A Dorian is the G scale played from A to A, but that it's a distinct minor scale with a raised 6- it's a different SOUND than the A natural minor (or A Aeolian). Run away from anyone who tells you to "use A Dorian for the ii chord, D Mixolydian for the V, and G Ionian for the I". All the notes you need are contained in the G major scale so that gives you your passing tones, and the notes of the chords tell you your target notes. AND, most importantly, thinking of a ii V I as three distinct chords that are totally separate and need a different scale for each one totally obliterates the key fact that these three chords have a specific RELATIONSHIP that we need to acknowledge when playing...
OK this has gotten quite a way from "how to best learn theory", but for some reason in the last 25 years "modes" has become a buzzword for guitarists and bassists starting to learn theory. They have a definite utility and place in learning, but it's way further down the trail than they're generally introduced.
John
Modes are NOT just the major scale started on a different note. That's a simplistic and limited way to think of them. It's really not that A Dorian is the G scale played from A to A, but that it's a distinct minor scale with a raised 6- it's a different SOUND than the A natural minor (or A Aeolian). Run away from anyone who tells you to "use A Dorian for the ii chord, D Mixolydian for the V, and G Ionian for the I". All the notes you need are contained in the G major scale so that gives you your passing tones, and the notes of the chords tell you your target notes. AND, most importantly, thinking of a ii V I as three distinct chords that are totally separate and need a different scale for each one totally obliterates the key fact that these three chords have a specific RELATIONSHIP that we need to acknowledge when playing...
OK this has gotten quite a way from "how to best learn theory", but for some reason in the last 25 years "modes" has become a buzzword for guitarists and bassists starting to learn theory. They have a definite utility and place in learning, but it's way further down the trail than they're generally introduced.
John
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
Anytime Toni! Glad I could help.... :lol:ladytexan said:
Exactly!griehund said:
With that said, good post jte... 8)
killdeer43
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:lol:bluesypicky said:
+1, or more!
Joe
204084
Member
I don't know who John is but he pretty much sums it up imho...learn the major scale and the steps/interval between each step...whole step-whole step-half step-etc...Beethoven, Thelonious Monk, and John Mclauglin all had the same starting point....the major scale. All western music has its basis on these step relationships. I'm really outta my league here but John is dead on, imho.jte said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meuN...st&playnext=1&index=1&list=PLC2B63BDAC0EBDC1F
adorshki
Reverential Member
Dang ya just let the whole dang cat outta the bag! :evil:204084 said:
If this was the Magician's Guild we'd probably be puttin' a hit out on ya right about now.
:lol:
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
you can even augment it. It helps even more!12 string said:
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
Right. Then you would sound flat.
adorshki
Reverential Member
Or wind up in the com mode.bluesypicky said:
"Here, There, and Everywhere" was mentioned as an example, yet McCartney knew little of music "theory" - but he certainly knew what sounded good.
Lennon in the late 60's: "I don't know much about theory, but I can make the guitar talk and howl".
Wes Montgomery could not read music, and understood very little of written theory, but can we agree he was one of the greatest jazz guitarists ever?
Although I know a few basic scales and theory "ideas", I would much rather spend time learning a new song, and enjoying myself. For me, and this is strictly my opinion, every time I have tried to spend time learnning "theory", it seems too much like "work", and that's the last thing I want to have happen when I pick up a guitar.
So I'll quote bluesypicky from one of his earlier posts, boldface is mine:
"This is what comes first, no question. Learning to appreciate which notes / chords sound good to you, and know where they are on your keyboard, neck or pistons.
Then learn what they're called, should you feel the need.....
The most widespread question I get about soloing is: "What mode do you play in?"
Interestingly enough, I couldn't care less. Pentatonic, Myxolidian, Dorian, you name it..... "
walrus
Lennon in the late 60's: "I don't know much about theory, but I can make the guitar talk and howl".
Wes Montgomery could not read music, and understood very little of written theory, but can we agree he was one of the greatest jazz guitarists ever?
Although I know a few basic scales and theory "ideas", I would much rather spend time learning a new song, and enjoying myself. For me, and this is strictly my opinion, every time I have tried to spend time learnning "theory", it seems too much like "work", and that's the last thing I want to have happen when I pick up a guitar.
So I'll quote bluesypicky from one of his earlier posts, boldface is mine:
"This is what comes first, no question. Learning to appreciate which notes / chords sound good to you, and know where they are on your keyboard, neck or pistons.
Then learn what they're called, should you feel the need.....
The most widespread question I get about soloing is: "What mode do you play in?"
Interestingly enough, I couldn't care less. Pentatonic, Myxolidian, Dorian, you name it..... "
walrus
killdeer43
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"Doc Watson couldn't read music, but he managed to get by."
"Without music, life would B flat."
8)
Joe
"Without music, life would B flat."
8)
Joe
adorshki
Reverential Member
I seem to recall that McCartneys daddy was actually in a performing band of teh '30s-40's dance hall era. When I firest read that somewhere, the light went on as to why he was the one who always wrote the "scmaltzy" stuff. SO maybe not formally educated but I think he obviuosly picked up a bunch of stuff from dear old dad, re "what goes with what".walrus said:
It also reminds me about how much boring filler was on early LP records. Makes me think the reason so much of that stuff was so bad was because it was composed according to a formula instead of according to a real emotion.
Even some of the stuff that actually charted seemed to be that way. In fact, most of the stuff on the charts was that way, now that I think about it. And how many of the thousands of tunes that made the top 40 do we actually remember now?
Just practicing in the man cave and found a piece of paper I printed out maybe a year ago. It's got the 5 blues scale boxes on it and I am realizing that this is the bit of information I've been using the most. It's based on A minor but I started using it in G and linked the first three boxes together to get three octaves. Then I moved it over one string and used it to create a C pattern which I have just realized is box 4 on my scale sheet. So now I have a moderately secure grasp on the first 4 boxes and have covered G, A, C, D & E. So, in my practice sessions I am continuing to link the first three boxes in G and A and am experimenting with the box 4 pattern in C, D & E. My next goal is to link two more boxes to the C pattern (box 4) so I can get a couple more octaves in C.
I don't know if that makes sense to anybody but for me it has proven to be a valuable tool to actually turn some theory into usable patterns for soloing. It's kind of fun when the light bulb turns on and you can actually see something with it.
I don't know if that makes sense to anybody but for me it has proven to be a valuable tool to actually turn some theory into usable patterns for soloing. It's kind of fun when the light bulb turns on and you can actually see something with it.