Aristocrat M-75 build

[wepeters09]

Looking to spend 2023 building a vintage version of the Aristocrat. However, to do that, one must understand details of how it was originally built (thank goodness for groups like this). I got the structure of kerfed sides, solid carved spruce with parallel support for top and pickups...but...

In Hans encyclopedia of early Guild, he references "the way the neck is attached to the body..." the M-75 used a different floating bridge and required pickups be mounted in the body instead of on.

Leads me to my two questions:

Q: What type of neck joint is used in the original M-75?
Q: What is the neck angle (assumed shallow by the unique bridge and inside-mount pickups)?
Q: What is the carve profile of the top? Some photos make it appear as a rounder slope (which I like) to the sides rather than a Les Paul type of obvious contours.



Then I see modern versions (as above on the left, I admit) with more neck visible at the joint and a very flat looking carve contour (if any):
New Ebay Listing -

Same listing


Vintage neck structure:


Building for my son, a jazz performer who's into the Julian Lage style and textures...

 

[BradHK]

The top is laminated spruce on the originals. Here are some photos of the neck joint from my 1954:

 

[wepeters09]

Excellent! Thank you!

 

[BradHK]

I can get neck angles and any measurements you need or detailed photos. Mine has had a neck reset so it won’t be exactly the angle from the factory but it should give you a good range. Just let me know. I love projects like these

 

[Walter Broes]

a solid top M75 might sound good, but it'll sound different than a regular laminated one. There's no precedent I can think of, so it's kind of a gamble.
The Korean ones are pretty incredible guitars for the money. I think if you put high quality pots, switch and jack in them and pickups of your liking in one, it's going to be pretty hard to improve on, if you want a brand new M75.

Julian Lage's Collings signature guitar has more in common with a Gretsch Duo Jet (and was probably to an extent modeled after his vintage one) than with an M75 by the way. Laminated maple arched top on a solid wood hollowed out body, connecting brace at the very least under the bridge (vintage Jets vary that way, in how hollow they are), and the kind of neck set that allows a bridge on a wood base like a full size archtop guitar would have. And the Bigsby B3 and DeArmond-allike pickups, of course.

 

[wepeters09]

I was mis-led on the solid carved vs. laminated spruce. I thought laminating happened with the Bluesbird in the late 60s. Interesting...

Thanks @Walter Broes - Julian's got the trestle in his Collings derived from the Jet - There are enough differences I'm considering here that may make this a worthwhile experiment - and I won't feel bad when it doesn't sound the same...

@BradHK - anything you can provide on the neck angle (even ballpark) and a pic of the arch profile would be most helpful!

 

[Walter Broes]

Julian's got the trestle in his Collings derived from the Jet -

The whole guitar is based on a mid fifties duo jet - materials, neck angle, pickups, switch location, master volume on the cutaway, bigsby..

Makes perfect sense too : he has at least one vintage jet, and probably found out in a hurry that a 50's Gretsch isn't constructed very well, a lot of the time doesn't play in tune up the neck, and generally has a lot of quirks that don't make it travel well - maybe if you travel with two backups and a guitar tech, but...

 

[BradHK]

Mine has a measured neck angle of around 4.5 degrees. The fretboard sits directly on the top on the bass side but has an angled shim on the treble side due to the shape of the top around the cutout. Pictures are below. The top has a section (30mm) around the rim that is flat before it arches up. The top is not very arched, maybe 10mm or so high from the top of the binding. Really difficult to get some good photos but here are some attempts:

 

[wepeters09]

This is excellent. Thank you @BradHK !

 

[wepeters09]

Taking a closer look at your excellent photos, it appears that the back and sides are laminate as well? That neck pocket photo is curious.

 

[guitarlover]

The back is definitely solid on an Aristocrat.

 

[SFIV1967]

The back is definitely solid on an Aristocrat.

Yes, solid Honduras Mahogany back, laminated Honduras Mahogany sides and a laminated Spruce top on the original 50ies version.
Ralf

 

[teleharmonium]

Taking a peek inside an old M65 should be helpful as they are the same other than the F holes and the lack of a "laminated spruce" top, which is only spruce on the top layer.

Since the M65 is surprisingly feedback resistant given the f holes, I think a solid spruce top on that size body would be a worthwhile effort, as long as it isn't for full blast rock guitar.

 

[mavuser]

The Korean ones are pretty incredible guitars for the money. I think if you put high quality pots, switch and jack in them and pickups of your liking in one, it's going to be pretty hard to improve on, if you want a brand new M75.

they are ready to go out of the box from my experience, the nicest Newark St. guitar ive played. @Default had to fix a cold solder joint on the one i had, but then it was ready to go. so no hardware swapping, just needed some USA love or possibly a set up. these are highly recommended.

the other spruce top Guild to look for is a USA Nightbird. but a custom build could be fun. good luck!

 

[BradHK]

Taking a peek inside an old M65 should be helpful as they are the same other than the F holes and the lack of a "laminated spruce" top, which is only spruce on the top layer.

Since the M65 is surprisingly feedback resistant given the f holes, I think a solid spruce top on that size body would be a worthwhile effort, as long as it isn't for full blast rock guitar.

One difference between the first generation m-75 and m-65 with the Franz pickups and the later versions of both are the spacing between the braces for the top. My 1954 m-75 has these braces closer together. They are notched so that the Franz “soapbar” pickups mount directly to them. The later m-75 and m-65 with pickups that use mounting rings have the braces wider so that the pickups go between the braces. If my memory is correct, my 1954 m-75 had a narrower neck block that allowed the narrower spaced bracing to run beside the neck block.

here is my 1954 Aristocrat:



here is my 1965 Freshman (from memory my 1967 M-75 has the same wider spacing for the anti-hum pickups):



I currently have my 1965 m-65 apart so I took a few photos. As was noted above, the construction is the same as the m-75 so these should give you a good idea of the braces and such. Sorry for the poor photo resolution and dust bunnies that need to be removed before the rebuild! As you can see from the photos: only bracing on the top, square non-shaped braces, the bass side brace runs right beside the neck block, the treble side brace fits into the kerf at the cutout, and both treble and bass braces go to the kerf at a point wider than the width of the tail block. Poor photos but this should give you an idea of how to build:

neck block and bass brace:



treble brace at cutout and showing how cutout meets the neck block:



brace location at tailpiece end and block:

 

[jromano]

Looking forward to seeing how the build goes.

 

[wepeters09]

@BradHK - Any idea on the thickness of the back plate? Interesting that bracing was configured around pickup mounting and not totally about optimum strength and resonance created by the bracing. Great info and it leads me to think that variations are plentiful throughout the years of production. Now, more than ever am I okay with doing things a bit differently as long as it's playable:

• Solid mahogany back and sides (not laminate)
• Carved western red cedar top
• Mahogany neck/ebony fretboard
• Tennon neck pocket (hoping to prevent neck dive with a bit more wood in the body)

Cedar arriving tomorrow and mahogany Wednesday...

Appreciate all the input...

 

[SFIV1967]

here is my 1954 Aristocrat:

Same on my 1956 one:



Ralf

 

[jp]

Looking forward to seeing the progress of your build. I think the carved cedar top will generate a distinctive tone.