Patriarch series
- Thread starter GGJaguar
- Start date
SFIV1967
Venerated Member
And they even had some good artists to play them for the short time:
Having the complete series is something special! I was at Winter NAMM 2013 when they were introduced, so I had the chance to quickly try all 3. Exceptional quality.
Ralf
Having the complete series is something special! I was at Winter NAMM 2013 when they were introduced, so I had the chance to quickly try all 3. Exceptional quality.
Ralf
chazmo
Super Moderator
Wicked cool, gg.
Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
Oh wow, are those yours? I wish I'd bought one of those X500's when they were available. A few got sold at very low prices when they were discontinued.
GGJaguar
Reverential Member
No, not mine though I'd love to have the AA and X-500. I saw this on the interwebs somewhere and I thought it would be of interest to share here. FMIC really blew it. They were reaching a new high level at New Hartford and they just walked away. Cordoba may never reach that point or, if the do, it will take a long time. They simply don't have the money to invest like FMIC did.
It's such a lot of tool-up to build archtops like that, only to pump out a couple dozen a year. I'm a broken record, but Guild's biggest problem with the AP stuff was having to compete with the actual vintage pieces they were reissuing in the market. Way easier for Gibson and Fender to bang out $3-6k guitars when the vintage market is sitting at $20-200k. As supremely cool as those AP guitars were, I think I'd rather have a fifties version of same. If they sit within $500 or so of each other, that's a problem.
To expand. I think they're much closer to on the right track with the NS stuff, not just in price. Getting the street price down low enough to move reissue M-75s and X-175s, etc without having to compete with the vintage ones seems smart. I've been so very tempted to grab one the few times I've had $5-700 spare bucks...
Beyond that, the sort of "reimagined" stuff is smart, hotrod X-350s, funky solidbodies, etc. IF they ever try to take a new stab at high end American electrics, they need to either stay in that lane, making reconfigured/unique models you'd have to destroy a vintage guitar to build OR go hard after the modern jazz guitar market with something that's not a fully traditional AA -- an evolution of what they started to try to do with Benedetto. I just can't see a market for modern American electrics, otherwise; the vintage stuff is just too cheap.
Beyond that, the sort of "reimagined" stuff is smart, hotrod X-350s, funky solidbodies, etc. IF they ever try to take a new stab at high end American electrics, they need to either stay in that lane, making reconfigured/unique models you'd have to destroy a vintage guitar to build OR go hard after the modern jazz guitar market with something that's not a fully traditional AA -- an evolution of what they started to try to do with Benedetto. I just can't see a market for modern American electrics, otherwise; the vintage stuff is just too cheap.
Rich Cohen
Senior Member
GG and Kakerlak, you guys are really smart about those guitars, the various versions of Guild's production. I admire your knowledge. And have learned a lot.
Thanks, but I'm not all that smart -- I just run my mouth (fingers?) a lot.
[EDIT] GGjags is an internet legend, OTOH.
SFIV1967
Venerated Member
Actually all 3 are owned by our own guildman63! It's his picture, see:
Ralf
GGJaguar
Reverential Member
Yup, agreed. A very smart move and well done (except for the models where the parallel braces were cut to accommodate the pickups resulting in sinking tops). For me, the AP series was to reproduce certain models that are desirable and rare (the three in the pic are good examples). Making Starfire IVs in Oxnard wouldn't be cost effective for the reasons you've mentioned. But making a '50s spec AA or X-550 would make sense because originals are nearly impossible to find. The NH facility was tooled up for this type of work, but I just don't see Cordoba being able to afford it. I think they will live in the flattop world until something major changes. But that is not necessarily a bad thing because I would love to see them make a '50s F-40 reissue and a mid-60s F-47 reissue.
fronobulax
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From conversations and living through the time I'd say the people who lived to make great guitars were not consulted when the FMIC investors decided to walk away from the factory, probably because the return on investment was too low. Just a clarification because IMO the "they" who reached a new high were NOT the "they" who walked away.
As others have noted the biggest competition for new Guilds was, and remains vintage Guilds. The folks who discussed this at LMGs in New Hartford were well aware of it but hand no real strategy other than to separate the price points where possible or make something that was clearly "better" than vintage. I see the AP line as exploring that strategy although its success can be debated.
Rich Cohen
Senior Member
Yeah, economics versus integrity. Not exactly an ethics question, though 'cause running a business takes common sense. Guild has always had to contend with Martin and Gibson, then the other challengers. The market has been saturated ever since the "folk" explosion in the 50's and 60s. I just hope that Cordoba is able to hang on long enough to gain some recognition for what they're trying to do. They're limited to what they can add to the line at this point.
Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
I don't disagree, but I don't agree entirely either. The NS guitars are what they are, and they're plenty cool for what they cost, but they're still guitars built to a fairly low price point for the types of guitar they are. And yes, I bought my vintage ones for not a lot more than what an NS costs now, but that's twenty years ago, and even a nice condition Franz pickup X175 will set you back at least 2K, probably more if you're in a hurry.
And the NS guitars, again, are alright, but I do miss nuance, sweetness, details, and more wine tasting terms in them that are there in the vintage guitars, or indeed in a quality archtop that's not made to a low price point in a far-east factory that specializes in that sort of thing.
Yeah, I think the problem is the old ones were already "pretty good," plus have the cache of a 60-70 y.o. instrument. I think they needed to have been both high quality and different. Staying in the vintage vein, but "different," just like they've been doing w/ NS the last few years. I think they'd have better luck selling upmarket versions of the newest sort of models at an AP price point than the reissues they were doing. They kind of got close to hitting on something with the T-400s, etc, but I think they goofed up running humbuckers in those. I think using the cheap Korean pickups in some of that stuff might've hurt, too, no matter how "right" they might sound. I mean, some of it might've been as simple as running stuff like an aristocrat with the full X-500 dressing, or a thinline DE reissue with a Franz and a DeArmond, like a bizarro world Guild Eddie Cochran model. Or team up with somebody like TK Smith of Curtis Novak on some funky pickups -- Bigsby stuff, etc. OTOH, maybe we're lucky we didn't see some nonsense like an X-175 with dice knobs and hotrod flames.
Right, but the NS stuff is priced far enough away from the present day vintage pieces to survive in the market. I just think you start to have problems running (admittedly super desirable) US versions at $5-6k MSRP.
Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
Yes, all true. But if Gretsch can have guitars built in Terada (Japan), so can Guild. I recently got a Terada built Gibson ES-175 copy made for a Japanese dealer (Walkin' Guitars, their "brand" is Archtop Tribute) and it's insanely nice for what I paid for it - and yes, it's more guitar than my NS Guild, in almost every aspect. I actually like it more than the clunky overbuilt things Gibson's been offering in the last 30-45 years.
American made archtops, market wise, are going to be a hard sell for any company I think, but a nicer guitar than a NS Guild is not impossible I think. Not to put the NS guitars down, again, they're great for what they are - but they're a little bit lacking in some respects.
Yeah, I've argued for MIJ stuff here before -- probably back when the NS stuff first came out. And it seems like it'd have been really easy for Fender to get up and running, too. I'm kind of surprised the MIJ stuff can still hit those price points.
Rich Cohen
Senior Member
The Epis buit in Japan in around 2003-2004, especially the Byrdland, were so good quality that Gibson discontinued them because they were outselling the Gibson made Brydlands!