D25 vs D4 whats the difference?

hello everybody,

i do think this question has been asked several times, but i still don't see clear....

if one would compare the D25 (arched back) with a D4 (arched back) what would be the differences besides the high gloss finish (D25) and the hand rubbed finisch (D4)?

taking a closer look to both guitars, this comes to light:

solid spruce top (both) - funny, some sources say "red spruce top" for the D4 <- could that be true?
solid mahagony sides (both)
laminated mahagony achred back (both)
one pice mahagony neck (both)
fretboard and bridge are the same.
nut and saddle material is the same on both guitars.

so far both guitars are looking as they are build from the same materials and made the same way. and here the finish comes in - one goes for high gloss (D25) the other for hand rubbed finishes (D4).

is there any other difference between the two models?
better grain for the top spruce, mabye AA for D4 nad AAAAA for the D25?
what about the top bracings? are they the same?

could anyone clear the dust for me please....

-ike- said:

high gloss finish (D25) and the hand rubbed finish (D4)

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That's it.

Checkit.

workedinwesterly said:

Yes the D-4 and the D-25 were the same guitar. If the guitar had any blemishes that the hand rub could not hide then it became a D-25 with a myriad of finish options.

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-ike- said:

hello everybody,
i do think this question has been asked several times, but i still don't see clear....
if one would compare the D25 (arched back) with a D4 (arched back) what would be the differences besides the high gloss finish (D25) and the hand rubbed finish (D4)?
taking a closer look to both guitars, this comes to light:
solid spruce top (both) - funny, some sources say "red spruce top" for the D4 <- could that be true?

Click to expand...

VERY highly unlikely. NEVER seen any spec as to a specific species of spruce in any official Westerly literature. First time ever saw red spruce specifically listed was in Tacoma price list. For D40 Bluegrass models.

-ike- said:

solid mahagony sides (both)
laminated mahagony achred back (both)
one pice mahagony neck (both)
fretboard and bridge are the same.

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Here's one of the few spec variations I've seen in woods between the two, noted on the Westerlyguildguitars website, they have the D4 as having a "MORADO" fretboard and I also saw that on a 2001 Westerly price list for a D25. (Hans please correct me if I'm not remembering that correctly. It was a link to the list that twocorgis posted recently)I SUSPECT that for a while they had different fretboards but the D25 got (or was intended to get) the "morado" at a very late period in Westerly. For sure the majority of D25's got rosewood board and saddle. It's also possible that both instruments changed to morado at the same time. WGG's spec recap is undated.

-ike- said:

nut and saddle material is the same on both guitars.
so far both guitars are looking as they are build from the same materials and made the same way. and here the finish comes in - one goes for high gloss (D25) the other for hand rubbed finishes (D4).

is there any other difference between the two models?

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THE D25 received a headstock overlay with MOP Guild logo inlay. The D4 got no inlay and silkscreen logo, at least originally. Also the D25 price included a standard case, the D4 did not.

-ike- said:

better grain for the top spruce, maybe AA for D4 and AAAAA for the D25?
what about the top bracings? are they the same?

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Probably. Here's a telling detail: Within a couple of years of D4's introduction, it SHARES a s/n sequence with D25. The inference is that the bodies were so identical there was no reason to give D4 it's own sequence. That would also explain WorkedinWesterly's statement, if they all started as the same guitar and were upgraded to D25's for whatever reasons applied at the moment. Headstock overlay's an easy add for instance.
Again, I've never seen a grade of spruce for entry and mid-level models mentioned in any Westerly lit I've seen. Any mention of a higher grade of spruce was reserved for the very top-of-the-line models. F65ce was spec'd at AAA for example. Not sure what Westerly's "standard grade" was. Anybody know? Hideglue maybe?
Dust clear now? :wink:

if this is true, why does a D4 cost less than a D25?
just because of the high glossy finish?

hmmm...

here is a link to a german ebay site, offering a D4-12:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Guild-D4-12-Akustikg ... 43a5a9f5f1

sorry - its in german, butit says

Top: solid red spruce

?????????????

Your not listening!!! The D4 costs less because of the aforementioned by adorshki; NO case, NO MOP inlay on the headstock, morado f/b and bridge, and no HG finish. In other words no bling. Does bling make it sound better? Sure is pretty though. FYI Morado is a Bolivian Rosewood.

-ike- said:

if this is true, why does a D4 cost less than a D25?
just because of the high glossy finish?

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NO OVERLAY, NO CASE. Oh, I see Ca35 just said that
And by the way, CA, THANK YOU for identifying "MORADO"!
And that German lister is either guilty of flat out fabrication of factual detail of that D4-12's top wood, or at the very least repeating something I am POSITIVE he cannot provide provenance for. :evil:
Happens all the time when sellers want to inflate the value of ther offering. That's what the LTG Mounties are for, although I'm only probationary status compared to some of the pros around here. :wink:
Ike I must apologize, I just realized you are probably translating this and I understand my comments may have become confused in the translation. :wink:

ca35 said:

Does bling make it sound better?

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Nope. I've played a D25 and a D4 and the difference is negligible. Of course, I didn't have them side-by-side, so I could be mistaken. Also, I had a DCE-1 for awhile which is basically a D4 with a cutaway and Fishman electronics, and it sounded just like a D25 to me. But - again - I never had the chance to play them side-by-side. Regardless, I moved on to a D35 which sounds basically like a D25 with slightly less oomph. Then that one went on to........oh yeah, another LTG'er by way of Craigslist. Still haven't gotten to the point where we can tell that story. But it'll all come out one day. Anyway, the D35 went away because I decided I had to have a DV-52. Good decision on my part. And a good decision on anyone's part would be to go out and get yourself a D4, D25, D35, DV-52, or any other Guild and you'll be happy.

Qvart said:

And a good decision on anyone's part would be to go out and get yourself a D4, D25, D35, DV-52, or any other Guild and you'll be happy.

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It's kinda like "What's your favorite flavor?" "I dunno, what kinda mood am I in today?" :wink:

@adorshki:

thank you for your patience

wth the link from the german ebay site, plus the german dealer i mentioned earlier here in LTG, i found two D4 in "new" condition. both in newer sold and never played condition. i also know about a D25 that a dealer close to me had given brand new from his store to his music-school. that D25 is like mine in ATB.

seem there are some more out there...

i have red here, that Fender-Guilds westerly production in the last years was somehow the "highwatermark" in quality control on the Guild guitars.

i am still planning to buy the D4 with serial # CF001988 - since this is a pre Fender-Guild, are there any differences in quality (controls)?

-ike- said:

@adorshki:
thank you for your patience

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:wink:

-ike- said:

i have red here, that Fender-Guilds westerly production in the last years was somehow the "highwatermark" in quality control on the Guild guitars.

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I said that very recently. I was repeating a statement of member "West R Lee" who stated he received that opinion from former Westerly employees. This is specifically the period from 1995 -2001. Fender acquired guild in 1995.
In fairness many others here feel that Guild quality has been consistently high, especially in comparison to their competitors at certain times.

In those "Guild Gallery" magazines Guild put in the late 90s they listed the grades. For the sake of brevity, the D4, DV4, D25 all had "A" grade spruce tops. The DV6 and the DV52 had "AA" tops, and the D55, D65 had "AAA" tops.

As I've said before my DV4 is similar in tone to my (former) DCE1, but the the DV4 is more subtle and focused, while the DCE1 was more boomy. Oddly, the DCE1 was one of the better recording guitars I've owned. I attribute this to a lack of complex overtones, and a very even volume from low to high.

(I'm repeating myself again) I have pondered upgrading my DV4 to a DV25 but so far I have yet to find a DV25 (I've played two) that sounded as good as my DV4.

plaidseason said:

In those "Guild Gallery" magazines Guild put in the late 90s they listed the grades. For the sake of brevity, the D4, DV4, D25 all had "A" grade spruce tops. The DV6 and the DV52 had "AA" tops, and the D55, D65 had "AAA" tops.

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THANKS! I only ever saw the first issue, which I still have. It simply says "solid spruce" all the way down the acoustic model list under the "tops" column.

Splitting hairs maybe, but my info is that the original D25 had a mahogany top and flat back from 1968 until 1973, then an arched back and hog top briefly, until it changed to an arched back and spruce top (dark stained/cherry/SB/NT) from 1974 onwards.
IMHO the biggest difference is the hog top, unless you're referring to post 1974 D25 models.

Johnny3j is right. My 1973 D25 has the mahogany top and arched back, but it also has a painted-on logo. They were the low-end models, you know. It's a tone-monster: big, thick, loud, bass-y. These things are legends on this board, for a reason.

johnny3j said:

Splitting hairs maybe, but my info is that the original D25 had a mahogany top and flat back from 1968 until 1973, then an arched back and hog top briefly, until it changed to an arched back and spruce top (dark stained/cherry/SB/NT) from 1974 onwards.
IMHO the biggest difference is the hog top, unless you're referring to post 1974 D25 models.

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You're right. I kind of assumed the comparison would be between the ones that were made at the same time, since that's why the question always gets asked. (D4 was introduced in '91) :wink:

adorshki said:

-ike- said:

i have red here, that Fender-Guilds westerly production in the last years was somehow the "highwatermark" in quality control on the Guild guitars.

Click to expand...

I said that very recently. I was repeating a statement of member "West R Lee" who stated he received that opinion from former Westerly employees. This is specifically the period from 1995 -2001. Fender acquired guild in 1995.
In fairness many others here feel that Guild quality has been consistently high, especially in comparison to their competitors at certain times.

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Exactly.
FMIC's implementation of an actual QC Dept. in no way meant that it was necessarily needed. But instead brought in for mandatory consistency along certain criteria.
A punch list already in place & used by the dedicated long before Schultz & Co.

Just to muddy the waters further... I bought my son a D4G which has a gloss finish, which reduces the differences with the D25 dramatically. It has the narrow headstock and the "True American" TRC. If I wanted a D25 I'd buy a D4G. Oh, it also came with a Guild standard case.

Over...

Don

Don said:

Just to muddy the waters further... I bought my son a D4G which has a gloss finish, which reduces the differences with the D25 dramatically. It has the narrow headstock and the "True American" TRC. If I wanted a D25 I'd buy a D4G. Oh, it also came with a Guild standard case.

Over...

Don

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Yes, exactly! And is there any difference at all in the headstock overlay?

Those '90s D4Gs are finished with a water based lacquer. Not "Nitro", as the D25s are.
And NOT to ignite that sort of powder keg.